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> Communism is an ideal but never a reality There is nothing ideal about communism. I'd rather own my production tools and be as productive as I want to be. I'

> Communism is an ideal but never a reality There is nothing ideal about communism. I'd rather own my production tools and be as productive as I want to be. I'd rather build wealth over trading opportunities, I'd rather hire people and reinvest earnings. That is ideal.

deleted 1y ago
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rapind 1y ago
I think you're missing the point. Communism doesn't actually exist in the real world. In fact you are right now using it as a straw man (my entire point). Who in the actual real world with any authority at all is telling you you can't be as productive as you want to be, build wealth, hire people, and reinvest your earnings?
- nurettin 1y ago
  I responded to the main points in the communist manifesto. It is clearly against putting a price on labor and declares hiring as exploitative practice. Clearly against individual capital. Clearly against individual products since capital is a "social power". That manipulative weasel. I can't even own a frickin laptop because it is a means of production and thus "state-owned". Just because it hasn't been "successfully implemented" according to your personal opinion doesn't mean it cannot be scrutinized. That's like if there is a sign that says "do not cross 3km/h" when someone says "that's too slow" you go "a-hah! straw man! How do you know you can't go 300kmph with that in place? nobody implemented that sign before!". Socrates would be proud.
  - rapind 1y ago
    > I responded to the main points in the communist manifesto. OK but that's irrelevant to my post. There's lots of books and manifestos that say lots of stupid things. You're arguing as if this manifesto is a real threat, and I'm saying "show me this threat". This isn't a real person with any impact on your day to day, like say a politician. It's a fantasy opposition. > Just because it hasn't been "successfully implemented" according to your personal opinion doesn't mean it cannot be scrutinized. OK sure, where? Where is this real world communism that meets the manifesto you are railing against? > That's like if there is a sign that says "do not cross 3km/h" when someone says "that's too slow" you go "a-hah! straw man! How do you know you can't go 300kmph with that in place? nobody implemented that sign before!". Socrates would be proud. OK that's an awkward analogy. It's more like someone wrote a manifesto that said cars shouldn't go over 3km/h and you want to use this "slow manifesto" to argue that any laws that would slow you down are some sort of slippery slope in to "slowmunism". No one with any authority in the real world is trying to implement the communist manifesto on to you. Not even the terrifying Bernie Sanders wants anything to do with communism. For the love of god, there is no communist threat. You can relax.
    - nurettin 1y ago
      The communist manifesto is what basically communism is. It is a real document billions swear by. But I get it. You are basically arguing that nothing and nobody exists or ever existed or do or does anything to anything or anyone or had any ideas and arguing ideas or what people do or could do or would do is pointless. Well, have fun with that. Sorry all this thread space was a waste.
      - rapind 1y ago
        > But I get it. You are basically arguing that nothing and nobody exists or ever existed or do or does anything to anything or anyone or had any ideas and arguing ideas or what people do or could do or would do is pointless. And so now you are just putting words in my mouth I assume because you have no argument. I can’t even parse this. You started an argument with a stance I never took by railing against a bogeyman I never advanced. And now you’re doing it again. If communism was anything more than an impractical ideal then you should have been able to point out where it actually exists. But of course it doesn’t exist. It’s just a fantasy. Maybe you want it to exist so you can point a finger and say “see what happens when you don’t do what I want?”?
chairmansteve 1y ago
Problem is, you may own the means of production, but most people don't. If you don't address that, you'll end up with a "dictatorship of the proletariat".
- nurettin 1y ago
  That's not a problem anymore. I live in a 2nd world country. Every farmer has a phone, anyone who wants can get their child a laptop. Just because I don't have access to machines which build plane engines doesn't mean I have the right to complain about proletariat. People who invented, invested, earned and built the damn things own them. If that's "dictatorship" that's fine.
  - chairmansteve 1y ago
    You are deceiving yourself. A phone and a laptop is not the means of production. It is a small part of it. You forget electricity, internet, data centers. In a rentier economy, the plutocracy slowly take control of all these things and then increase the rent they charge to the rest of us. This was part of Marx's analysis, as I'm sure you are aware. Free market capitalism is great, but it has to balanced with regulation or it evolves into feudalism.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

rapind 1y ago

I think you're missing the point. Communism doesn't actually exist in the real world. In fact you are right now using it as a straw man (my entire point). Who in the actual real world with any authority at all is telling you you can't be as productive as you want to be, build wealth, hire people, and reinvest your earnings?

nurettin 1y ago
I responded to the main points in the communist manifesto. It is clearly against putting a price on labor and declares hiring as exploitative practice. Clearly against individual capital. Clearly against individual products since capital is a "social power". That manipulative weasel. I can't even own a frickin laptop because it is a means of production and thus "state-owned". Just because it hasn't been "successfully implemented" according to your personal opinion doesn't mean it cannot be scrutinized. That's like if there is a sign that says "do not cross 3km/h" when someone says "that's too slow" you go "a-hah! straw man! How do you know you can't go 300kmph with that in place? nobody implemented that sign before!". Socrates would be proud.
- rapind 1y ago
  > I responded to the main points in the communist manifesto. OK but that's irrelevant to my post. There's lots of books and manifestos that say lots of stupid things. You're arguing as if this manifesto is a real threat, and I'm saying "show me this threat". This isn't a real person with any impact on your day to day, like say a politician. It's a fantasy opposition. > Just because it hasn't been "successfully implemented" according to your personal opinion doesn't mean it cannot be scrutinized. OK sure, where? Where is this real world communism that meets the manifesto you are railing against? > That's like if there is a sign that says "do not cross 3km/h" when someone says "that's too slow" you go "a-hah! straw man! How do you know you can't go 300kmph with that in place? nobody implemented that sign before!". Socrates would be proud. OK that's an awkward analogy. It's more like someone wrote a manifesto that said cars shouldn't go over 3km/h and you want to use this "slow manifesto" to argue that any laws that would slow you down are some sort of slippery slope in to "slowmunism". No one with any authority in the real world is trying to implement the communist manifesto on to you. Not even the terrifying Bernie Sanders wants anything to do with communism. For the love of god, there is no communist threat. You can relax.
  - nurettin 1y ago
    The communist manifesto is what basically communism is. It is a real document billions swear by. But I get it. You are basically arguing that nothing and nobody exists or ever existed or do or does anything to anything or anyone or had any ideas and arguing ideas or what people do or could do or would do is pointless. Well, have fun with that. Sorry all this thread space was a waste.
    - rapind 1y ago
      > But I get it. You are basically arguing that nothing and nobody exists or ever existed or do or does anything to anything or anyone or had any ideas and arguing ideas or what people do or could do or would do is pointless. And so now you are just putting words in my mouth I assume because you have no argument. I can’t even parse this. You started an argument with a stance I never took by railing against a bogeyman I never advanced. And now you’re doing it again. If communism was anything more than an impractical ideal then you should have been able to point out where it actually exists. But of course it doesn’t exist. It’s just a fantasy. Maybe you want it to exist so you can point a finger and say “see what happens when you don’t do what I want?”?

chairmansteve 1y ago

Problem is, you may own the means of production, but most people don't. If you don't address that, you'll end up with a "dictatorship of the proletariat".

nurettin 1y ago
That's not a problem anymore. I live in a 2nd world country. Every farmer has a phone, anyone who wants can get their child a laptop. Just because I don't have access to machines which build plane engines doesn't mean I have the right to complain about proletariat. People who invented, invested, earned and built the damn things own them. If that's "dictatorship" that's fine.
- chairmansteve 1y ago
  You are deceiving yourself. A phone and a laptop is not the means of production. It is a small part of it. You forget electricity, internet, data centers. In a rentier economy, the plutocracy slowly take control of all these things and then increase the rent they charge to the rest of us. This was part of Marx's analysis, as I'm sure you are aware. Free market capitalism is great, but it has to balanced with regulation or it evolves into feudalism.