3 ms·

Yes, Zahi Hawass is a comical example at this point. But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the ma

Yes, Zahi Hawass is a comical example at this point. But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the majority of the uneducated masses there. Zahi Hawass is just the current sociopath to happen to benifiet from the situation to call himself a "scholar". I spent a significant part of my teen years in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. There isn't really 1 unified feelings towards the "Ancient Egypt" history among Egyptians. First time I heard about the "Ancient Aliens" conspiracy WAS from an Egyptian. I never really paid the theory much attention until all the articles about how "it's a racist theory" "basically indigenous people can't do things without aliens" narrative was surprising. There was pride in the telling of the conspiracy theory of Ancient Egyptians contacting aliens. "Of course when the Aliens visited Earth, they had to come to Egypt, you konw. We were in touch with aliens and had far more advanced technologies than all other societies. sadly it's been lost" type thinking. The general opinion was split between people who don't give a shit about all this pharo shit, people who think it's a cool marketing story in the 21st century, people who think it's their history and identity. It was allover the place

wileydragonfly 1y ago
I’m amazed he’s still at it but the last time I checked in on him he was fighting against all that “ancient aliens” crap so he’s not all bad.
prmph 1y ago
They are ambivalent about "all this pharo" stuff because it is not really their heritage.
- theultdev 1y ago
  > because it is not really their heritage Could you expand on this?
  - ggm 1y ago
    Not OP but.. The ptolemaic Pharaohs (Cleopatra..) and after are not related to the dynastic cultures which made the pyramids. They were greeks. Subsequent occupation by post Roman cultures including the Byzantine, and Islamic Arabic tribes, and the Ottomans, means the culture and genetics of modern Egypt have little to do with pyramids and pre-roman era mummies and culture/religion/beliefs. Waves of occupation over 2000 years eroded any cultural link. What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. Nasser was an arabist, as were the young egypt political movement of the 19th century. It's like asking why modern British people aren't strongly identifying with pictish culture or beaker people. The Egyptian archaeologists assert nationalism and cultural goals and have to deal with Islamic fundamentalists who push back on pre Islamic religious artefacts. Saudi archaeologists have similar pressures.
    - prmph 1y ago
      Thanks, you explained it better than I might have. > What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. I understand the Copts in Egypt also have a stronger relationship to the ancient culture than the the population as a whole.
  - dismalaf 1y ago
    Egypt is an Arab country. They're literally called the Arab Republic of Egypt. Before that the United Arab Republic. Official language Arabic. Arabs came from Arabia, not Egypt. Copts are a bit closer to ancient Egypt (their language especially) but their religion is Orthodox Christianity which influences their culture, which came out of the Greek/Roman culture of Ptolemaic-Roman Egypt.
    - eddythompson80 1y ago
      Oh boy, the subject of Egyptian identity is a complicated subject. Are they Arabs? Egyptians? Muslims? Mediterraneans? Pharaohs? Coptic? Bedouin? Berbers? An "Arab" is not a race nor is it exclusionary with Ancient Egypt. If someone had an uninterrupted ancestory line from today to Ramasis II, those ancestors learned Arabic at some point and became Arabs or Muslims themselves. Ok, most Egyptians I have known would immediately strike out Berbers/Amazeghs identity. They actively dislike "amazeghs" and consider them foreigners even though they look the same, speak the same language, and plenty are legally Egyptians with families that have lived there since the 17th century. Egyptians consider them imposters and maybe thats why they are hated more than the "obviously a foreigner". At least the latter isn't pretending. But at the "Bedouin" the lines start getting blurred. They identify as independent tribes that partially moved from Arabia in the 7th or 8th century and they are very very adamant about their independence from the Egyptian state and their right to self determination and how they live. They are the libertarians of Egypt, except they actually practice a fully bedouin/nomad/libertarian lifestyle. The state is always fighting with them. Most regular Egyptians I knew consider them Egyptians despite their disapproval. Egyptians public like the bedouins in general. It's a romanticized existence. The Arabic/Egyptian/Muslim/Christian/Coptic/Pharaonic/Roman/Greek/Ottomon identity of Egyptians (and arabs in general) is a subject of many books.
      - dismalaf 1y ago
        > those ancestors learned Arabic at some point and became Arabs or Muslims themselves. Did they? Seems like this is erasure of the Copts, a people who, to this day, both still exist, mostly aren't Muslim and speak a language directly descended from ancient Egyptian.
  - tmp10423288442 1y ago
    Modern Egyptians are primarily Arab. If anyone is a descendant of the Ancient Egyptians, it’s the Coptic Christians, who still use a descendant of the Ancient Egyptian language as a liturgical language and mostly don’t have any Arabic ancestry (since the child of an Arab Muslim and a Copt would almost always be considered an Arab Muslim).
Ozzie_osman 1y ago
> But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the majority of the uneducated masses there. Hawass may be more a manifestation of what foreigners believe an Egyptologist should look like: Indiana Jones hat, cigar, etc. He is influential in large parts because of his popularity in the media outside Egypt.

wileydragonfly 1y ago

I’m amazed he’s still at it but the last time I checked in on him he was fighting against all that “ancient aliens” crap so he’s not all bad.

prmph 1y ago

They are ambivalent about "all this pharo" stuff because it is not really their heritage.

theultdev 1y ago
> because it is not really their heritage Could you expand on this?
- ggm 1y ago
  Not OP but.. The ptolemaic Pharaohs (Cleopatra..) and after are not related to the dynastic cultures which made the pyramids. They were greeks. Subsequent occupation by post Roman cultures including the Byzantine, and Islamic Arabic tribes, and the Ottomans, means the culture and genetics of modern Egypt have little to do with pyramids and pre-roman era mummies and culture/religion/beliefs. Waves of occupation over 2000 years eroded any cultural link. What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. Nasser was an arabist, as were the young egypt political movement of the 19th century. It's like asking why modern British people aren't strongly identifying with pictish culture or beaker people. The Egyptian archaeologists assert nationalism and cultural goals and have to deal with Islamic fundamentalists who push back on pre Islamic religious artefacts. Saudi archaeologists have similar pressures.
  - prmph 1y ago
    Thanks, you explained it better than I might have. > What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. I understand the Copts in Egypt also have a stronger relationship to the ancient culture than the the population as a whole.
- dismalaf 1y ago
  Egypt is an Arab country. They're literally called the Arab Republic of Egypt. Before that the United Arab Republic. Official language Arabic. Arabs came from Arabia, not Egypt. Copts are a bit closer to ancient Egypt (their language especially) but their religion is Orthodox Christianity which influences their culture, which came out of the Greek/Roman culture of Ptolemaic-Roman Egypt.
  - eddythompson80 1y ago
    Oh boy, the subject of Egyptian identity is a complicated subject. Are they Arabs? Egyptians? Muslims? Mediterraneans? Pharaohs? Coptic? Bedouin? Berbers? An "Arab" is not a race nor is it exclusionary with Ancient Egypt. If someone had an uninterrupted ancestory line from today to Ramasis II, those ancestors learned Arabic at some point and became Arabs or Muslims themselves. Ok, most Egyptians I have known would immediately strike out Berbers/Amazeghs identity. They actively dislike "amazeghs" and consider them foreigners even though they look the same, speak the same language, and plenty are legally Egyptians with families that have lived there since the 17th century. Egyptians consider them imposters and maybe thats why they are hated more than the "obviously a foreigner". At least the latter isn't pretending. But at the "Bedouin" the lines start getting blurred. They identify as independent tribes that partially moved from Arabia in the 7th or 8th century and they are very very adamant about their independence from the Egyptian state and their right to self determination and how they live. They are the libertarians of Egypt, except they actually practice a fully bedouin/nomad/libertarian lifestyle. The state is always fighting with them. Most regular Egyptians I knew consider them Egyptians despite their disapproval. Egyptians public like the bedouins in general. It's a romanticized existence. The Arabic/Egyptian/Muslim/Christian/Coptic/Pharaonic/Roman/Greek/Ottomon identity of Egyptians (and arabs in general) is a subject of many books.
    - dismalaf 1y ago
      > those ancestors learned Arabic at some point and became Arabs or Muslims themselves. Did they? Seems like this is erasure of the Copts, a people who, to this day, both still exist, mostly aren't Muslim and speak a language directly descended from ancient Egyptian.
- tmp10423288442 1y ago
  Modern Egyptians are primarily Arab. If anyone is a descendant of the Ancient Egyptians, it’s the Coptic Christians, who still use a descendant of the Ancient Egyptian language as a liturgical language and mostly don’t have any Arabic ancestry (since the child of an Arab Muslim and a Copt would almost always be considered an Arab Muslim).

Ozzie_osman 1y ago

> But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the majority of the uneducated masses there. Hawass may be more a manifestation of what foreigners believe an Egyptologist should look like: Indiana Jones hat, cigar, etc. He is influential in large parts because of his popularity in the media outside Egypt.