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I think, as much or more than Hawass's ego, the fact that tourism to Egypt and specifically Giza amounts to nearly a tenth of Egypt's GDP: https://egyptianstree

I think, as much or more than Hawass's ego, the fact that tourism to Egypt and specifically Giza amounts to nearly a tenth of Egypt's GDP: https://egyptianstreets.com/2024/12/09/tourism-contribution-to-egypts-gdp-rises-to-8-1-in-2024/ https://egyptianstreets.com/2024/12/09/tourism-contribution-... accounts for a lot of his behavior. It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years, and keeping the mysteries alive keeps the money flowing to the cult of Kufu or the modern equivalent. History for Granite ( https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryforGRANITE https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryforGRANITE ) touches on this powerful explanation for several observable aspects of these ancient sites that otherwise defy explanation. The top of The Great Pyramid was likely flattened so that rich visitors could pay to have an unforgettable picnic at the top. Many passages were filled up with sand and rubble because guides didn't enjoy the extra time and effort in hot dark bat infested areas that tourists demanded. And so on. Zahi is carrying on a long tradition.

NL807 1y ago
Here's the thing, one can promote tourism while also being academically honest. Hawass just wants to be the top dog in the field and does not want to be wrong about some of the things he claimed in his publications.
thaumasiotes 1y ago
> It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years I think you're confusing "Egyptian economic activity related to tourism" with "the existence of civilization in Egypt".
- 9dev 1y ago
  Nope. There are literally voyage reports by Herodotus, who describes guides to the pyramids, street food vendors, and translators. That was about 2500 years ago, for example.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    You might notice that 2500 years ago is a lot less than 5000 years ago. 5000 years ago, there were no guides to the pyramids. There was no tourism. There wasn't really writing, either. Today tourism makes up a little more than 10% of the economy of Egypt. 2500 years ago, it would have been around 0%, for the simple reason that almost nobody could afford to be a tourist. The big businesses were grain and gold. 5000 years ago, it was actually 0%. That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society.
    - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
      > That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society. It's very interesting to imagine the "green Sahara" cultures, with all of their cities and temples now under tons of sand, that we otherwise have no knowledge of.
    - JetSpiegel 1y ago
      Just because they were called pilgrims, they did the same thing as modeen tourists, with the corresponding economic activities: visiting landmarks, sleeping, eating, shopping. Praying wasn't even free, if they had to sacrifice some animal.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- timschmidt 1y ago
  No, I'm not. The Great Pyramid was built circa 2500 - 2600 BC, or about 4600 years ago. I think it's fair to say that civilization was humming before that, and that even the construction likely attracted tourists. Seems to be part of the point of monuments. Djoser's pyramid seems to have been completed around a hundred years prior to that, and would have drawn crowds sufficient to warrant the large temple, grand entrance, and colonnades which are part of the complex. There is a great deal of evidence that offerings provided by people traveling to these complexes sustained the religious orders on site who provided guardianship, maintenance, and worship. And that this was planned as part of the construction.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    The tomb and temple complexes aren't built to accommodate demand. They're built at the size the king wants them to be, and used for official ceremonies.
    - hoseja 1y ago
      Try imagining what those official ceremonies are for actually.
      - thaumasiotes 1y ago
        They're for building the legitimacy of the king. What do you want me to imagine?
        timschmidt 1y ago
        A different perspective which has a lot more explanatory power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItAQSrlG9WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItAQSrlG9WQ
        hoseja 1y ago
        Literally what do you imagine "legitimacy" is? Like down at the ground. What is it actually. What does the word you read in textbooks mean besides a vague idea.
sho_hn 1y ago
I quite enjoy that YouTube channel. I watch any history content on YouTube with enormous fear and worry of crackpottery and "alternative history"-type charlatanry, and I feel like this one hasn't let me down yet, though I'll probably never feel at ease watching it given the subject matter.
- timschmidt 1y ago
  I really appreciate his nuanced stance that even cranks and kooks are capable of observation and recording what they see. And his obsession with correlating details through original historical accounts. And the work he's doing mapping the individual blocks of the casings and throughout the passages. It's one of the channels that convinced me that Youtube was a legitimate path for getting your scientific research funded.

NL807 1y ago

Here's the thing, one can promote tourism while also being academically honest. Hawass just wants to be the top dog in the field and does not want to be wrong about some of the things he claimed in his publications.

thaumasiotes 1y ago

> It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years I think you're confusing "Egyptian economic activity related to tourism" with "the existence of civilization in Egypt".

9dev 1y ago
Nope. There are literally voyage reports by Herodotus, who describes guides to the pyramids, street food vendors, and translators. That was about 2500 years ago, for example.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  You might notice that 2500 years ago is a lot less than 5000 years ago. 5000 years ago, there were no guides to the pyramids. There was no tourism. There wasn't really writing, either. Today tourism makes up a little more than 10% of the economy of Egypt. 2500 years ago, it would have been around 0%, for the simple reason that almost nobody could afford to be a tourist. The big businesses were grain and gold. 5000 years ago, it was actually 0%. That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society.
  - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
    > That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society. It's very interesting to imagine the "green Sahara" cultures, with all of their cities and temples now under tons of sand, that we otherwise have no knowledge of.
  - JetSpiegel 1y ago
    Just because they were called pilgrims, they did the same thing as modeen tourists, with the corresponding economic activities: visiting landmarks, sleeping, eating, shopping. Praying wasn't even free, if they had to sacrifice some animal.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
timschmidt 1y ago
No, I'm not. The Great Pyramid was built circa 2500 - 2600 BC, or about 4600 years ago. I think it's fair to say that civilization was humming before that, and that even the construction likely attracted tourists. Seems to be part of the point of monuments. Djoser's pyramid seems to have been completed around a hundred years prior to that, and would have drawn crowds sufficient to warrant the large temple, grand entrance, and colonnades which are part of the complex. There is a great deal of evidence that offerings provided by people traveling to these complexes sustained the religious orders on site who provided guardianship, maintenance, and worship. And that this was planned as part of the construction.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  The tomb and temple complexes aren't built to accommodate demand. They're built at the size the king wants them to be, and used for official ceremonies.
  - hoseja 1y ago
    Try imagining what those official ceremonies are for actually.
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      They're for building the legitimacy of the king. What do you want me to imagine?
      - timschmidt 1y ago
        A different perspective which has a lot more explanatory power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItAQSrlG9WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItAQSrlG9WQ
      - hoseja 1y ago
        Literally what do you imagine "legitimacy" is? Like down at the ground. What is it actually. What does the word you read in textbooks mean besides a vague idea.

sho_hn 1y ago

I quite enjoy that YouTube channel. I watch any history content on YouTube with enormous fear and worry of crackpottery and "alternative history"-type charlatanry, and I feel like this one hasn't let me down yet, though I'll probably never feel at ease watching it given the subject matter.

timschmidt 1y ago
I really appreciate his nuanced stance that even cranks and kooks are capable of observation and recording what they see. And his obsession with correlating details through original historical accounts. And the work he's doing mapping the individual blocks of the casings and throughout the passages. It's one of the channels that convinced me that Youtube was a legitimate path for getting your scientific research funded.