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>The lack of any Egyptian archeologists on most interesting and significant findings about Ancient Egypt is one. It seems like Egyptian archaeologists is a cli

by NL807 1y ago

>The lack of any Egyptian archeologists on most interesting and significant findings about Ancient Egypt is one. It seems like Egyptian archaeologists is a clique of academics that do not like to rock the apple cart and go against established ideas about Egyptian history. There is a lot of gate keeping going on, mostly in part of Zahi Hawass, a narcissist that likes to self insert into every research into the subject, and control publication of results, etc. Even worse, claim attribution for work he's not even part of. So, if you don't kiss the ring, or dare to challenge ideas without his blessing, you'll be pretty much become a pariah that will never access archaeological sites again. Because of this, research in the field seems to be stagnant.

timschmidt 1y ago
I think, as much or more than Hawass's ego, the fact that tourism to Egypt and specifically Giza amounts to nearly a tenth of Egypt's GDP: https://egyptianstreets.com/2024/12/09/tourism-contribution-to-egypts-gdp-rises-to-8-1-in-2024/ https://egyptianstreets.com/2024/12/09/tourism-contribution-... accounts for a lot of his behavior. It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years, and keeping the mysteries alive keeps the money flowing to the cult of Kufu or the modern equivalent. History for Granite ( https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryforGRANITE https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryforGRANITE ) touches on this powerful explanation for several observable aspects of these ancient sites that otherwise defy explanation. The top of The Great Pyramid was likely flattened so that rich visitors could pay to have an unforgettable picnic at the top. Many passages were filled up with sand and rubble because guides didn't enjoy the extra time and effort in hot dark bat infested areas that tourists demanded. And so on. Zahi is carrying on a long tradition.
- NL807 1y ago
  Here's the thing, one can promote tourism while also being academically honest. Hawass just wants to be the top dog in the field and does not want to be wrong about some of the things he claimed in his publications.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years I think you're confusing "Egyptian economic activity related to tourism" with "the existence of civilization in Egypt".
  - 9dev 1y ago
    Nope. There are literally voyage reports by Herodotus, who describes guides to the pyramids, street food vendors, and translators. That was about 2500 years ago, for example.
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      You might notice that 2500 years ago is a lot less than 5000 years ago. 5000 years ago, there were no guides to the pyramids. There was no tourism. There wasn't really writing, either. Today tourism makes up a little more than 10% of the economy of Egypt. 2500 years ago, it would have been around 0%, for the simple reason that almost nobody could afford to be a tourist. The big businesses were grain and gold. 5000 years ago, it was actually 0%. That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society.
      - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
        > That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society. It's very interesting to imagine the "green Sahara" cultures, with all of their cities and temples now under tons of sand, that we otherwise have no knowledge of.
      - JetSpiegel 1y ago
        Just because they were called pilgrims, they did the same thing as modeen tourists, with the corresponding economic activities: visiting landmarks, sleeping, eating, shopping. Praying wasn't even free, if they had to sacrifice some animal.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- sho_hn 1y ago
  I quite enjoy that YouTube channel. I watch any history content on YouTube with enormous fear and worry of crackpottery and "alternative history"-type charlatanry, and I feel like this one hasn't let me down yet, though I'll probably never feel at ease watching it given the subject matter.
  - timschmidt 1y ago
    I really appreciate his nuanced stance that even cranks and kooks are capable of observation and recording what they see. And his obsession with correlating details through original historical accounts. And the work he's doing mapping the individual blocks of the casings and throughout the passages. It's one of the channels that convinced me that Youtube was a legitimate path for getting your scientific research funded.
eddythompson80 1y ago
Yes, Zahi Hawass is a comical example at this point. But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the majority of the uneducated masses there. Zahi Hawass is just the current sociopath to happen to benifiet from the situation to call himself a "scholar". I spent a significant part of my teen years in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. There isn't really 1 unified feelings towards the "Ancient Egypt" history among Egyptians. First time I heard about the "Ancient Aliens" conspiracy WAS from an Egyptian. I never really paid the theory much attention until all the articles about how "it's a racist theory" "basically indigenous people can't do things without aliens" narrative was surprising. There was pride in the telling of the conspiracy theory of Ancient Egyptians contacting aliens. "Of course when the Aliens visited Earth, they had to come to Egypt, you konw. We were in touch with aliens and had far more advanced technologies than all other societies. sadly it's been lost" type thinking. The general opinion was split between people who don't give a shit about all this pharo shit, people who think it's a cool marketing story in the 21st century, people who think it's their history and identity. It was allover the place
- wileydragonfly 1y ago
  I’m amazed he’s still at it but the last time I checked in on him he was fighting against all that “ancient aliens” crap so he’s not all bad.
- prmph 1y ago
  They are ambivalent about "all this pharo" stuff because it is not really their heritage.
  - theultdev 1y ago
    > because it is not really their heritage Could you expand on this?
    - ggm 1y ago
      Not OP but.. The ptolemaic Pharaohs (Cleopatra..) and after are not related to the dynastic cultures which made the pyramids. They were greeks. Subsequent occupation by post Roman cultures including the Byzantine, and Islamic Arabic tribes, and the Ottomans, means the culture and genetics of modern Egypt have little to do with pyramids and pre-roman era mummies and culture/religion/beliefs. Waves of occupation over 2000 years eroded any cultural link. What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. Nasser was an arabist, as were the young egypt political movement of the 19th century. It's like asking why modern British people aren't strongly identifying with pictish culture or beaker people. The Egyptian archaeologists assert nationalism and cultural goals and have to deal with Islamic fundamentalists who push back on pre Islamic religious artefacts. Saudi archaeologists have similar pressures.

by NL807 1y ago

timschmidt 1y ago

I think, as much or more than Hawass's ego, the fact that tourism to Egypt and specifically Giza amounts to nearly a tenth of Egypt's GDP: https://egyptianstreets.com/2024/12/09/tourism-contribution-to-egypts-gdp-rises-to-8-1-in-2024/ https://egyptianstreets.com/2024/12/09/tourism-contribution-... accounts for a lot of his behavior. It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years, and keeping the mysteries alive keeps the money flowing to the cult of Kufu or the modern equivalent. History for Granite ( https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryforGRANITE https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryforGRANITE ) touches on this powerful explanation for several observable aspects of these ancient sites that otherwise defy explanation. The top of The Great Pyramid was likely flattened so that rich visitors could pay to have an unforgettable picnic at the top. Many passages were filled up with sand and rubble because guides didn't enjoy the extra time and effort in hot dark bat infested areas that tourists demanded. And so on. Zahi is carrying on a long tradition.

NL807 1y ago
Here's the thing, one can promote tourism while also being academically honest. Hawass just wants to be the top dog in the field and does not want to be wrong about some of the things he claimed in his publications.
thaumasiotes 1y ago
> It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years I think you're confusing "Egyptian economic activity related to tourism" with "the existence of civilization in Egypt".
- 9dev 1y ago
  Nope. There are literally voyage reports by Herodotus, who describes guides to the pyramids, street food vendors, and translators. That was about 2500 years ago, for example.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    You might notice that 2500 years ago is a lot less than 5000 years ago. 5000 years ago, there were no guides to the pyramids. There was no tourism. There wasn't really writing, either. Today tourism makes up a little more than 10% of the economy of Egypt. 2500 years ago, it would have been around 0%, for the simple reason that almost nobody could afford to be a tourist. The big businesses were grain and gold. 5000 years ago, it was actually 0%. That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society.
    - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
      > That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society. It's very interesting to imagine the "green Sahara" cultures, with all of their cities and temples now under tons of sand, that we otherwise have no knowledge of.
    - JetSpiegel 1y ago
      Just because they were called pilgrims, they did the same thing as modeen tourists, with the corresponding economic activities: visiting landmarks, sleeping, eating, shopping. Praying wasn't even free, if they had to sacrifice some animal.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
sho_hn 1y ago
I quite enjoy that YouTube channel. I watch any history content on YouTube with enormous fear and worry of crackpottery and "alternative history"-type charlatanry, and I feel like this one hasn't let me down yet, though I'll probably never feel at ease watching it given the subject matter.
- timschmidt 1y ago
  I really appreciate his nuanced stance that even cranks and kooks are capable of observation and recording what they see. And his obsession with correlating details through original historical accounts. And the work he's doing mapping the individual blocks of the casings and throughout the passages. It's one of the channels that convinced me that Youtube was a legitimate path for getting your scientific research funded.

eddythompson80 1y ago

Yes, Zahi Hawass is a comical example at this point. But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the majority of the uneducated masses there. Zahi Hawass is just the current sociopath to happen to benifiet from the situation to call himself a "scholar". I spent a significant part of my teen years in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. There isn't really 1 unified feelings towards the "Ancient Egypt" history among Egyptians. First time I heard about the "Ancient Aliens" conspiracy WAS from an Egyptian. I never really paid the theory much attention until all the articles about how "it's a racist theory" "basically indigenous people can't do things without aliens" narrative was surprising. There was pride in the telling of the conspiracy theory of Ancient Egyptians contacting aliens. "Of course when the Aliens visited Earth, they had to come to Egypt, you konw. We were in touch with aliens and had far more advanced technologies than all other societies. sadly it's been lost" type thinking. The general opinion was split between people who don't give a shit about all this pharo shit, people who think it's a cool marketing story in the 21st century, people who think it's their history and identity. It was allover the place

wileydragonfly 1y ago
I’m amazed he’s still at it but the last time I checked in on him he was fighting against all that “ancient aliens” crap so he’s not all bad.
prmph 1y ago
They are ambivalent about "all this pharo" stuff because it is not really their heritage.
- theultdev 1y ago
  > because it is not really their heritage Could you expand on this?
  - ggm 1y ago
    Not OP but.. The ptolemaic Pharaohs (Cleopatra..) and after are not related to the dynastic cultures which made the pyramids. They were greeks. Subsequent occupation by post Roman cultures including the Byzantine, and Islamic Arabic tribes, and the Ottomans, means the culture and genetics of modern Egypt have little to do with pyramids and pre-roman era mummies and culture/religion/beliefs. Waves of occupation over 2000 years eroded any cultural link. What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. Nasser was an arabist, as were the young egypt political movement of the 19th century. It's like asking why modern British people aren't strongly identifying with pictish culture or beaker people. The Egyptian archaeologists assert nationalism and cultural goals and have to deal with Islamic fundamentalists who push back on pre Islamic religious artefacts. Saudi archaeologists have similar pressures.