4 ms·

In cell cultures. So nothing about topical, or digestive pathways. Just, expose cells to vitamin c rich medium. How would topical application work, and what ki

by ggm 1y ago

In cell cultures. So nothing about topical, or digestive pathways. Just, expose cells to vitamin c rich medium. How would topical application work, and what kind of homeostasis effect, from ingestion. If you are low on vitamin c in your diet, sure. If not, you may not get much benefit from having more.

cookiengineer 1y ago
Maybe plasters with ascorbin acid in it? That would be the first thing that comes to mind. Or maybe plaster spray where it's mixed with the typical protein foam?
ethan_smith 1y ago
Topical vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) at concentrations of 10-20% with pH <3.5 can penetrate the stratum corneum, though stability and formulation significantly impact bioavailability.
- jijijijij 1y ago
  You can just freshly mix cheap vitamin C powder and water to the desired concentration, adjust pH to be less irritating. The solution can last for a few days, if cooled and protected from light. For it to be effective (according to studies), it needs to be applied daily/frequently. However, DIY is so cheap, you can use it all over your body. Wash/wipe off excess (see below). The problem is commercialization. Vitamin C is very, very reactive, so formulating it for shelf storage and production is challenging. I think you either have to add expensive/exotic antioxidant systems, or rely on ascorbate derivatives which may be less/not effective. Fair warning: Vitamin C degrades to dehydroascorbic acid: After some delay, vitamin C solution may stain skin and everything in contact yellow. DHA may also further break down into erythrulose, a self-tanning agent browning the skin semi-permanently (likely not very healthy). Vitamin C may also react with other things (eg. skin care products) in unpredictable ways and can actually form radicals under some conditions. Eg. It can react with benzoic acid to form benzene. On the modern skin, with UV exposure, a primordial soup of "actives", complex hydrocarbons and all natural metal catalysts, vitamin C may facilitate genesis… The science is promising, but the chemistry of vitamin C is hard to control, or even reason about.
  - inkyoto 1y ago
    > The problem is commercialization. Vitamin C is very, very reactive. … hence it oxidises easily. There has recently been a novel development, ethyl ascorbic acid, that is much more stable due to being more inert. It resists the oxidation for a much longer time compared to ascorbyl glucoside and L-ascorbic acid, and it has been successfully commercialised in some skincare products. The products using it command a premium, though.
    - jijijijij 1y ago
      AFAIK, the derivatives are less researched, so hard to argue about. Often, the concentration isn’t disclosed, too. I would just go DIY, since commercial products are either very, very expensive, or ineffective. Once you got your measurements down, mixing it freshly takes no time. And you can afford to use it all over the body, not just the face. This way you know, it’s not oxidized, it’s exactly what’s used in some better studies, it is effective. Even DIYing a stabilized formulation with ferulic acid is possible and still much cheaper. Personally, I have trust issues with vitamin C chemistry tho :D
      - gamblor956 1y ago
        Anyone who can afford the equipment to make fresh vitamin c serum could easily afford several years supply of high end commercial products that have been tested to confirm their ingredients and effects.
        jijijijij 1y ago
        That’s ridiculous. You need a mg scale and pH strips as equipment (~ 20€, once); tap water, pure vitamin C and sodium bicarbonate as ingredients (~ 6€, lasts for many, many preparations). Aluminium foil to make any glas container light-tight. The chemicals are food grade from your next supermarket or drug store. The "recipe" is used in some studies.
    - david_pearce 1y ago
      I haven't found any evidence that ethyl ascorbic acid is more stable in aqueous solution than ascorbyl glucoside
majkinetor 1y ago
Everybody is low on C in diet. It's thermolabile, and there is glucose competition for GLUT transporters. IMO, everybody should take at least 2g daily in a couple of doses, particularly smokers.
- nabla9 1y ago
  This is not true. 2g is the max recommended dose. Most people can get enough vitamin C each day from food or drink. 3/4 cup of orange juice daily is enough. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/vitamin-c/faq-20058030 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h... Taking vitamin C orally decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and harms the health benefits of training, like increased insulin resistance. (well established from multiple studies, easy to google). There was huge antioxidant craze in late 90's and 00's when taking antioxidant supplements like C was considered the right thing to do. Now we know that just taking more antioxidants does not directly help with oxidization tress, because it messes up metabolism and can even increase it.
  - bryant 1y ago
    For those who don't want to Google: • https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/jphysiol.2013.267419 https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/jphy... • https://www.pnas.org/content/106/21/8665 https://www.pnas.org/content/106/21/8665
    - majkinetor 1y ago
      Cherry picking 2 studies out of zillions and calling it science? Good job
      - nabla9 1y ago
        > well established from multiple studies, easy to google That's not all of them. You can find systematic reviews and meta-analyses walking trough them all. Easy to google. 50-100 mg per day is OK and possible has some benefits, if you go to more than 2 grams like you suggested for health person, there is no evidence of benefits, only harms.

by ggm 1y ago

cookiengineer 1y ago

Maybe plasters with ascorbin acid in it? That would be the first thing that comes to mind. Or maybe plaster spray where it's mixed with the typical protein foam?

ethan_smith 1y ago

Topical vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) at concentrations of 10-20% with pH <3.5 can penetrate the stratum corneum, though stability and formulation significantly impact bioavailability.

jijijijij 1y ago
You can just freshly mix cheap vitamin C powder and water to the desired concentration, adjust pH to be less irritating. The solution can last for a few days, if cooled and protected from light. For it to be effective (according to studies), it needs to be applied daily/frequently. However, DIY is so cheap, you can use it all over your body. Wash/wipe off excess (see below). The problem is commercialization. Vitamin C is very, very reactive, so formulating it for shelf storage and production is challenging. I think you either have to add expensive/exotic antioxidant systems, or rely on ascorbate derivatives which may be less/not effective. Fair warning: Vitamin C degrades to dehydroascorbic acid: After some delay, vitamin C solution may stain skin and everything in contact yellow. DHA may also further break down into erythrulose, a self-tanning agent browning the skin semi-permanently (likely not very healthy). Vitamin C may also react with other things (eg. skin care products) in unpredictable ways and can actually form radicals under some conditions. Eg. It can react with benzoic acid to form benzene. On the modern skin, with UV exposure, a primordial soup of "actives", complex hydrocarbons and all natural metal catalysts, vitamin C may facilitate genesis… The science is promising, but the chemistry of vitamin C is hard to control, or even reason about.
- inkyoto 1y ago
  > The problem is commercialization. Vitamin C is very, very reactive. … hence it oxidises easily. There has recently been a novel development, ethyl ascorbic acid, that is much more stable due to being more inert. It resists the oxidation for a much longer time compared to ascorbyl glucoside and L-ascorbic acid, and it has been successfully commercialised in some skincare products. The products using it command a premium, though.
  - jijijijij 1y ago
    AFAIK, the derivatives are less researched, so hard to argue about. Often, the concentration isn’t disclosed, too. I would just go DIY, since commercial products are either very, very expensive, or ineffective. Once you got your measurements down, mixing it freshly takes no time. And you can afford to use it all over the body, not just the face. This way you know, it’s not oxidized, it’s exactly what’s used in some better studies, it is effective. Even DIYing a stabilized formulation with ferulic acid is possible and still much cheaper. Personally, I have trust issues with vitamin C chemistry tho :D
    - gamblor956 1y ago
      Anyone who can afford the equipment to make fresh vitamin c serum could easily afford several years supply of high end commercial products that have been tested to confirm their ingredients and effects.
      - jijijijij 1y ago
        That’s ridiculous. You need a mg scale and pH strips as equipment (~ 20€, once); tap water, pure vitamin C and sodium bicarbonate as ingredients (~ 6€, lasts for many, many preparations). Aluminium foil to make any glas container light-tight. The chemicals are food grade from your next supermarket or drug store. The "recipe" is used in some studies.
  - david_pearce 1y ago
    I haven't found any evidence that ethyl ascorbic acid is more stable in aqueous solution than ascorbyl glucoside

majkinetor 1y ago

Everybody is low on C in diet. It's thermolabile, and there is glucose competition for GLUT transporters. IMO, everybody should take at least 2g daily in a couple of doses, particularly smokers.

nabla9 1y ago
This is not true. 2g is the max recommended dose. Most people can get enough vitamin C each day from food or drink. 3/4 cup of orange juice daily is enough. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/vitamin-c/faq-20058030 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h... Taking vitamin C orally decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and harms the health benefits of training, like increased insulin resistance. (well established from multiple studies, easy to google). There was huge antioxidant craze in late 90's and 00's when taking antioxidant supplements like C was considered the right thing to do. Now we know that just taking more antioxidants does not directly help with oxidization tress, because it messes up metabolism and can even increase it.
- bryant 1y ago
  For those who don't want to Google: • https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/jphysiol.2013.267419 https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/jphy... • https://www.pnas.org/content/106/21/8665 https://www.pnas.org/content/106/21/8665
  - majkinetor 1y ago
    Cherry picking 2 studies out of zillions and calling it science? Good job
    - nabla9 1y ago
      > well established from multiple studies, easy to google That's not all of them. You can find systematic reviews and meta-analyses walking trough them all. Easy to google. 50-100 mg per day is OK and possible has some benefits, if you go to more than 2 grams like you suggested for health person, there is no evidence of benefits, only harms.