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I don't clearly see how a massive exodus of American scientists moving abroad could happen. While I understand that young scientists might find it easier to rel

by wslh 1y ago

I don't clearly see how a massive exodus of American scientists moving abroad could happen. While I understand that young scientists might find it easier to relocate, the decision becomes significantly far more complicated for couples, even when both partners are scientists. For other countries or regions to become truly competitive, they would also need to increase their investment in science significantly [1]. [1] https://www.wipo.int/web/global-innovation-index/w/blogs/2024/end-of-year-edition https://www.wipo.int/web/global-innovation-index/w/blogs/202...

standardUser 1y ago
Other nations are indeed taking deliberate steps to seize the reins from the US, particularly China and Europe.
apical_dendrite 1y ago
China will scoop up some researchers, but likely there will just be fewer people entering the profession in the US because there will just be less funding and opportunities for graduate students, postdocs, and early career researchers.
shihab 1y ago
People don’t understand that other countries (primary suppliers of stem graduate students) do have lots of research positions, it’s just they don’t usually get first rate talent because USA is far more attractive for those people. Now they will
stonogo 1y ago
Which is happening: See https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-releases/are-you-a-top-us-based-scientist-wanting-to-relocate-to-australia https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-re... and https://www.univ-amu.fr/en/public/actualites/safe-place-science-aix-marseille-universite-ready-welcome-american-scientists https://www.univ-amu.fr/en/public/actualites/safe-place-scie... for current examples. But other countries don't need to increase funding to become competitive, since we are decreasing funding. All they have to do is nothing.
cgh 1y ago
Canada is recruiting US scientists: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/us-scientists-canada-1.7502527 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/us-scientists-canada-1.750252...
linguae 1y ago
I agree with this analysis; it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. However, there’s another thing to consider: the amount of researchers from grad students all the way to tenured professors and senior industry researchers who are not American citizens who moved to America for their careers. The following is anecdotal and I don’t have any statistics. When I was a PhD student at UC Santa Cruz, roughly half of my classmates were foreigners, many from mainland China and India, but also from Iran, South Korea, Greece, Uruguay, and Mexico, to name a few. My first advisor was a German who became a naturalized American citizen, and while roughly half of my professors were native-born Americans, I also had professors from China, Ireland, Greece, Singapore, and Argentina. During my time in industry in Silicon Valley as a researcher, I’ve worked with many people who grew up abroad and moved to the United States for grad school. The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture. The problem I see is when immigrants to America who have already made those sacrifices end up leaving America, either to return to their countries of origin or to different countries. If a significant number of immigrant scientists leave America, this will be a tremendous blow to American science, and this may also be a boon to countries that are willing and able to hire these talented people. China, for example, has the money to fund science at levels competitive with the United States. I don’t foresee a lot of Americans moving to China, partly due to the language barrier, and also partly due to China’s political system. However, what if Chinese researchers in the United States return to China en masse? This is not good for us, though it would be great for China. These are scary times in America.
- marcus_holmes 1y ago
  > The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture So, all those people you met did exactly this. > it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. No harder than it was for any of those other people to relocate to the USA. I know that Americans like to believe that everyone in the rest of the world really wants to live in the USA, but that's actually not true. There's a certain fascination, for sure, but (and especially recently) the USA is not the shining beacon on the hill that it once was. > I don’t foresee a lot of Americans moving to China, partly due to the language barrier, and also partly due to China’s political system I suspect that both these barriers are easily overcome with the simple realisation that the choice is "be a scientist in China, or not at all". If the USA cuts funding for all science, then all scientists must move abroad. There's no option to stay in the USA and be a scientist, because science in the USA is government funded and the government stopped funding it. If the individual chooses to stay in the USA, then they must also choose to stop being a scientist.
marcus_holmes 1y ago
If all the jobs doing research disappear because all the funding is cut, then what other choice to they have? If one parent loses their job and cannot get a new one in their field, they have to either switch career (and start a new career at a lower point) or they take a longer-term view, assume that the other parent will also lose their job, and switch country.

by wslh 1y ago

standardUser 1y ago

Other nations are indeed taking deliberate steps to seize the reins from the US, particularly China and Europe.

apical_dendrite 1y ago

China will scoop up some researchers, but likely there will just be fewer people entering the profession in the US because there will just be less funding and opportunities for graduate students, postdocs, and early career researchers.

shihab 1y ago

People don’t understand that other countries (primary suppliers of stem graduate students) do have lots of research positions, it’s just they don’t usually get first rate talent because USA is far more attractive for those people. Now they will

stonogo 1y ago

Which is happening: See https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-releases/are-you-a-top-us-based-scientist-wanting-to-relocate-to-australia https://www.science.org.au/news-and-events/news-and-media-re... and https://www.univ-amu.fr/en/public/actualites/safe-place-science-aix-marseille-universite-ready-welcome-american-scientists https://www.univ-amu.fr/en/public/actualites/safe-place-scie... for current examples. But other countries don't need to increase funding to become competitive, since we are decreasing funding. All they have to do is nothing.

cgh 1y ago

Canada is recruiting US scientists: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/us-scientists-canada-1.7502527 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/us-scientists-canada-1.750252...

linguae 1y ago

I agree with this analysis; it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. However, there’s another thing to consider: the amount of researchers from grad students all the way to tenured professors and senior industry researchers who are not American citizens who moved to America for their careers. The following is anecdotal and I don’t have any statistics. When I was a PhD student at UC Santa Cruz, roughly half of my classmates were foreigners, many from mainland China and India, but also from Iran, South Korea, Greece, Uruguay, and Mexico, to name a few. My first advisor was a German who became a naturalized American citizen, and while roughly half of my professors were native-born Americans, I also had professors from China, Ireland, Greece, Singapore, and Argentina. During my time in industry in Silicon Valley as a researcher, I’ve worked with many people who grew up abroad and moved to the United States for grad school. The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture. The problem I see is when immigrants to America who have already made those sacrifices end up leaving America, either to return to their countries of origin or to different countries. If a significant number of immigrant scientists leave America, this will be a tremendous blow to American science, and this may also be a boon to countries that are willing and able to hire these talented people. China, for example, has the money to fund science at levels competitive with the United States. I don’t foresee a lot of Americans moving to China, partly due to the language barrier, and also partly due to China’s political system. However, what if Chinese researchers in the United States return to China en masse? This is not good for us, though it would be great for China. These are scary times in America.

marcus_holmes 1y ago
> The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture So, all those people you met did exactly this. > it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. No harder than it was for any of those other people to relocate to the USA. I know that Americans like to believe that everyone in the rest of the world really wants to live in the USA, but that's actually not true. There's a certain fascination, for sure, but (and especially recently) the USA is not the shining beacon on the hill that it once was. > I don’t foresee a lot of Americans moving to China, partly due to the language barrier, and also partly due to China’s political system I suspect that both these barriers are easily overcome with the simple realisation that the choice is "be a scientist in China, or not at all". If the USA cuts funding for all science, then all scientists must move abroad. There's no option to stay in the USA and be a scientist, because science in the USA is government funded and the government stopped funding it. If the individual chooses to stay in the USA, then they must also choose to stop being a scientist.

marcus_holmes 1y ago

If all the jobs doing research disappear because all the funding is cut, then what other choice to they have? If one parent loses their job and cannot get a new one in their field, they have to either switch career (and start a new career at a lower point) or they take a longer-term view, assume that the other parent will also lose their job, and switch country.