4 ms·

Unions are not effective when there's such a surplus of labor and people willing to break lines. It wont work in today's tech labor market.

by aydyn 1y ago

pmyteh 1y ago
The traditional response to that was violence against scabs, for better or for worse: it keeps people from breaking picket lines even when otherwise willing. This photo in particular captures something of it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Strikers_Riot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Strikers_Riot
- xienze 1y ago
  > The traditional response to that was violence against scabs And how are you going to do that when the scabs are in India? Unions work in “physical” domains (like plumbing, factory work, etc.), not so much in “virtual” domains where all you need is a computer to do your work and there’s an entire world full of workers who would think they’ve died and gone to heaven if they could make half your salary.
  - franktankbank 1y ago
    > when the scabs are in India Lol good luck with that.
silisili 1y ago
Sure it would. There are way more employed tech people than unemployed. Imagine if every single person at a company like MS up and went on strike tomorrow. Could MS replace them all with scabs? Sure, with enough time and money. But it wouldn't happen overnight, and things would get very dire if not company ruining in the meantime.
- idkwhattocallme 1y ago
  A digital strike by all employees for a week to get a collective bargaining agreement in place to show companies just how far AI has to go as a replacement would be powerful.
  - ponector 1y ago
    I'd argue nothing happens if everyone go on strike. It's not an assembly line. No release? Great. Noone to attend meetings? Not a big deal! Cannot get a real person for support? Same as without strike!
    - WhyIsItAlwaysHN 1y ago
      Outages would not be picked up
    - eviks 1y ago
      > No release? Great. What is great about your mission critical bug not getting fixed for a few more weeks?
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      I think you underappreciate what SRE does on a daily basis.
- billy99k 1y ago
  With remote work? good luck. Unions only work where all the work is localized. I'm in tech and I would never join a union. Why do I need collective bargaining to set my salary (and not give me raise until it's collectively raised) when I can bargain for my own raises? In addition to this, unions don't bode well for innovation and technology. Look at the Taxicab unions. We could only get a cab in person or through the phone, because the unions had no incentive to innovate. It look a non-union startup to push them to actually make it convenient and better for the customer.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    > Look at the Taxicab unions. We could only get a cab in person or through the phone, because the unions had no incentive to innovate. It look a non-union startup to push them to actually make it convenient and better for the customer. OTOH, gig drivers are being paid below minimum wage, with no benefits, no retirement plan, and no stability of work. As a customer, yay technology and UX! But as a human, it's objectively worse for society.
    - billy99k 1y ago
      "OTOH, gig drivers are being paid below minimum wage, with no benefits, no retirement plan, and no stability of work." Gig work is not supposed to be stable, have benefits, or retirement. It's supposed to be there for someone to make extra money. I know lots of people that used it to make extra money and now can't make anything because of new regulations. If you wanted to drive a Taxi in NYC, it was a million dollar investment for a medallion and the whole system was a monopoly that shutdown any new advancements. How was this better for humans or customers?
      - johnnyanmac 1y ago
        >How was this better for humans or customers? The workers got paid, couldn't be laid off easily, and can make a career. But i guess I see this line of thinking and see exactly how we got to trumpism. The current system has flaws and bad actors, let's instead burn it down and replace it with even worse actors who make all the money. Don't bother using anti trust or regulating the new industry, the old boogeyman ruined it.
mancerayder 1y ago
Exactly. What are unions going to do, prevent H1B workers from replacing them?
- ponector 1y ago
  Why to bother with H1B workers if they are hiring directly in India?
johnnyanmac 1y ago
>people willing to break lines. It's even simpler than this. We call is "collective bargaining" for a reason. If we don't collect... We lose all the power. But my country's been so individualistic and no one seems to trust anyone anymore. No wonder we're struggling. We can't even come together to say "hey we need better minumum wage" after the longest drought of not raising it.

Unions are not effective when there's such a surplus of labor and people willing to break lines. It wont work in today's tech labor market.

by aydyn 1y ago

Unions are not effective when there's such a surplus of labor and people willing to break lines. It wont work in today's tech labor market.

pmyteh 1y ago

The traditional response to that was violence against scabs, for better or for worse: it keeps people from breaking picket lines even when otherwise willing. This photo in particular captures something of it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Strikers_Riot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Strikers_Riot

xienze 1y ago
> The traditional response to that was violence against scabs And how are you going to do that when the scabs are in India? Unions work in “physical” domains (like plumbing, factory work, etc.), not so much in “virtual” domains where all you need is a computer to do your work and there’s an entire world full of workers who would think they’ve died and gone to heaven if they could make half your salary.
- franktankbank 1y ago
  > when the scabs are in India Lol good luck with that.

silisili 1y ago

Sure it would. There are way more employed tech people than unemployed. Imagine if every single person at a company like MS up and went on strike tomorrow. Could MS replace them all with scabs? Sure, with enough time and money. But it wouldn't happen overnight, and things would get very dire if not company ruining in the meantime.

idkwhattocallme 1y ago
A digital strike by all employees for a week to get a collective bargaining agreement in place to show companies just how far AI has to go as a replacement would be powerful.
- ponector 1y ago
  I'd argue nothing happens if everyone go on strike. It's not an assembly line. No release? Great. Noone to attend meetings? Not a big deal! Cannot get a real person for support? Same as without strike!
  - WhyIsItAlwaysHN 1y ago
    Outages would not be picked up
  - eviks 1y ago
    > No release? Great. What is great about your mission critical bug not getting fixed for a few more weeks?
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    I think you underappreciate what SRE does on a daily basis.
billy99k 1y ago
With remote work? good luck. Unions only work where all the work is localized. I'm in tech and I would never join a union. Why do I need collective bargaining to set my salary (and not give me raise until it's collectively raised) when I can bargain for my own raises? In addition to this, unions don't bode well for innovation and technology. Look at the Taxicab unions. We could only get a cab in person or through the phone, because the unions had no incentive to innovate. It look a non-union startup to push them to actually make it convenient and better for the customer.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  > Look at the Taxicab unions. We could only get a cab in person or through the phone, because the unions had no incentive to innovate. It look a non-union startup to push them to actually make it convenient and better for the customer. OTOH, gig drivers are being paid below minimum wage, with no benefits, no retirement plan, and no stability of work. As a customer, yay technology and UX! But as a human, it's objectively worse for society.
  - billy99k 1y ago
    "OTOH, gig drivers are being paid below minimum wage, with no benefits, no retirement plan, and no stability of work." Gig work is not supposed to be stable, have benefits, or retirement. It's supposed to be there for someone to make extra money. I know lots of people that used it to make extra money and now can't make anything because of new regulations. If you wanted to drive a Taxi in NYC, it was a million dollar investment for a medallion and the whole system was a monopoly that shutdown any new advancements. How was this better for humans or customers?
    - johnnyanmac 1y ago
      >How was this better for humans or customers? The workers got paid, couldn't be laid off easily, and can make a career. But i guess I see this line of thinking and see exactly how we got to trumpism. The current system has flaws and bad actors, let's instead burn it down and replace it with even worse actors who make all the money. Don't bother using anti trust or regulating the new industry, the old boogeyman ruined it.

mancerayder 1y ago

Exactly. What are unions going to do, prevent H1B workers from replacing them?

ponector 1y ago
Why to bother with H1B workers if they are hiring directly in India?

johnnyanmac 1y ago

>people willing to break lines. It's even simpler than this. We call is "collective bargaining" for a reason. If we don't collect... We lose all the power. But my country's been so individualistic and no one seems to trust anyone anymore. No wonder we're struggling. We can't even come together to say "hey we need better minumum wage" after the longest drought of not raising it.