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The first American 'scientific refugees' arrive in France
- 762236 1y ago[flagged]
- saubeidl 1y agoDo you not see the irony in your statement? What is conservatism if not an ideology? All you're saying is universities that align with the prevalent ideology of the authoritarian regime will be fine. Congrats, you're now the Soviet Union.
- travisgriggs 1y agoI think the OP was posting somewhat tongue in cheek. Sardonic even.
- hollywood_court 1y agoAlso, "thought diversity" and conservatives aren't things that typically go together.
- like_any_other 1y agoEmpirically false - see figure 2: https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso.12665 https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso....
- ap99 1y agoYour response reveals the way you're thinking about this. i.e. If I accept and employ a conservative person then I'm aligning with conservative values and betraying liberal values. What the GP is proposing is abandoning this black and white thinking, or in other words: accepting diversity of thought. (Waiting for downvotes from the HN echo chamber that abhors diversity of thought.)
- saubeidl 1y agoThat is straight up not what's happening though and the "diversity of thought" framing is a way conservatives like to gaslight people into accepting their censorship. Climate change research is being threatened. Universities are being bullied for supporting trans athletes. There's a reason these folks are fleeing. It's not because they can't stand to have colleagues with opposing views, it's because they are threatened. To reframe it as "diversity of thought" is disingenuous and dishonest.
- ap99 1y agoYou're implying there was an abundance of diversity of thought before 2024 or 2016. Was there? Academia has been this way for decades.
- saubeidl 1y agoSo which is it now? Is it newly found diversity of thought or has it always been this way? I don't remember the last time the president bullied universities the way this one is doing, fwiw.
- kentm 1y agoI would argue there was. You’re using “Accepts conservative thoughts uncritically” as the barometer here. Conservative thought just tends to lose out when examined critically, so the right seeks to compensate by authoritarian measures. See heavy handed, top down efforts to suppress climate science, gender and trans science, research into effects of diversity, etc.
- 1y ago
- 762236 1y agoIf a university has thought diversity, their demographics will match America's: they'll employ around 50% conservatives. If they have like 3% conservatives, as many do, that is a good sign that they are captured by an ideology, and then the question becomes, why should conservatives support institutions with federal money that actively spread an ideology that excludes conservatives? If the universities want to continue this way, they should pursue First Amendment religious protection.
- saubeidl 1y agoYour core assumption is false. Education is not evenly distributed alongside ideologies. Education is negatively correlated with conservatism, thus a sample of a job requiring higher education will not be representative of the general public.
- 762236 1y agoHistorical employment rates of conservatives at universities were much higher than now.
- verdverm 1y agoThe definition and constituents of "conservatives" has changed over that same time
- saubeidl 1y agoThat was in a time when conservatism wasn't openly anti-science and anti-scientific process.
- 762236 1y agoI started voting for Republicans because I watched Democrats become anti-science, e.g., gender-affirming care. Anyone with ideology rejects science, which includes people from both parties, but currently my life is impacted in a negative way by liberal ideology, not conservative ideology (conservatives actually talk with me, while liberals shun me if I ask for evidence).
- tjs8rj 1y agoThe problem is our public institutions (universities) are using public dollars on things that are not desired by the public. Institutions have accountability to the people. Nobody except a fringe wants universities to be maga centers, most people just want them to reflect “common sense” and forward the will of the American people
- kentm 1y agoPublic universities should not be beholden to the public in what they research. It’s important that institutions are able to make conclusions that are true and expand human knowledge despite certain portions of the population not liking those conclusions. I would also dispute your assertion that “no one wants universities to be maga centers.” Leaders on the right have said that they do want that, or at least the right wing American mythos to be uncritically taught and not challenged.
- tjs8rj 1y agoThis isn’t about research topics, this is about money being spent on activism I said “nobody except a fringe”, which is correct
- epistasis 1y agoThis is simply untrue and backforming extreme right-wing ideology as a reason for why people voted for a ln entire candidate. One things that fascists do when voted into power is assume that any random strange ideology as part of the platform is now so popular that it must override existing law and procedure, and that is exactly what Trump is doing here. Which is why these researchers are leaving. Not because they are doing something the public dislikes. The public looooves scientific research.
- maeln 1y ago> The problem is our public institutions (universities) are using public dollars on things that are not desired by the public. That are not desired by the public until it is. A lot of people might find research in advance and quite esoteric math useless, as it does not produce any benefit to them. That is until those research yield something that can be used in a way, or in another field, where it does impact their lives. The issue is that you cannot easily tell what is useful or not. Some research have a clear goal, who, if achieved, will yield very tangible benefit, but they might never reach it. On the other hand, something that seems impenetrable to the average man might yield incredible benefit. Without the freedom to explore, nothing would ever be found.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- micromacrofoot 1y agothis is completely out of touch with what's actually happening, hundreds of millions of dollars are being pulled from ongoing research that's entirely apolitical... it's a campaign of vengeance
- bilbo0s 1y agoIn fairness.. in certain ideologies, belief in scientific research and the scientific method, in and of itself, is regarded as a political ideology. Not necessarily only a scientific one. To them, it's exclusionary to require that ideas be backed by data and replicated via peer review before being taken seriously, or even published in certain journals. Whereas to most academics the very problem are the cracks in the integrity of peer review, and the replication crisis. It's a case of world views that are simply diametrically opposed.
- micromacrofoot 1y agoSo we're calling ignorance an ideology now?
- mathiaspoint 1y agoIt's not vengeance. Public institutions get funded by the public as long as the public feels they benefit. Many of these institutions went on a massive PR campaign demonizing the majority demographic. Regardless of whether it's actually true or not they now feel like the institutions are a net loss for them and would prefer the money is spent elsewhere.
- micromacrofoot 1y ago> Many of these institutions went on a massive PR campaign demonizing the majority demographic I'm sorry what? where's the evidence? the current administration has been saying (in their words) that they're pulling funding from Harvard because they aren't doing enough to stop antisemitism and are pushing for a direct role in governance — they've attempted to freeze billions of dollars in grants for a number of things including medical research Historically this research has shown massive measurable return on investment, which is why it's funded so well.
- maeln 1y ago> An early-career biological anthropologist said she was still awaiting contract details from AMU before putting pen to paper because of salary discrepancies, though she took comfort in the fact that the cost of living is lower in France — especially considering that education for her two children, who she said were eager to settle in Marseille, would be free. Researcher are severely under paid in France (young researcher often earn barely more than the minimum wage). I doubt she will find the salary to her expectation (though the very strong worker right, and 5 weeks vacation might compensate for that). In general, research is severely underfunded in France. That is nice that we try to make a gesture toward researcher under threat, but how many of them will we be able to keep when they realized the struggle of getting any funding for research here...
- jonathanlb 1y agoThis is addressed in TFA: > [...] the fact there's less money for research. > An early-career biological anthropologist said she was still awaiting contract details from AMU before putting pen to paper because of salary discrepancies, though she took comfort in the fact that the cost of living is lower in France — especially considering that education for her two children, who she said were eager to settle in Marseille, would be free. > The university’s president insisted that participants in the “Safe Place for Science” program would be paid the same wages as French researchers. The statement sought to appease concerns within France’s academic community that money would now be focused on drawing U.S. scientists whereas local researchers have long complained of insufficient funding. > But the biological anthropologist said a more carefree life could compensate for a lower salary. "There’ll be a lot less stress as a whole, politically, academically," she reflected.
- maeln 1y agoThe underfunding is not addressed, and it is not even a subject in France right now. This specific researcher might be fine with a more carefree life (that is, what she thinks might be a more carefree life), but the general issue remains.
- jltsiren 1y ago
- brunker2 1y ago[flagged]
- rsynnott 1y agoNot sure if you're just being obtuse, but, er, I mean, yeah, climate science is in a lot of trouble under ol' minihands.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 1y agoGive me your passport! I want in!
- ThinkBeat 1y agoI wonder what the mixture of academics will apply and who will be picked. Clearly professors or scholars in Women's studies / gender studies, critical race theory, and climate science are the ones worst hit by the current leadership in the US.
- malcolmgreaves 1y agoIt’s also all science across the board. The Republicans have made sure that research goes underfunded.
- KittenInABox 1y ago> Clearly professors or scholars in Women's studies / gender studies, critical race theory, and climate science are the ones worst hit by the current leadership in the US. Source?? Here's the thing, as far as I know, women's studies/gender studies, crt, whatever... they're cheap, mostly phd students doing mass surveys of interviews or studying metadata. The expensive stuff is engineering, clinical trials, specialized equipment for labs... that stuff is also being hit.
- ryandv 1y ago> Clearly professors or scholars in Women's studies / gender studies Good riddance. The standards for scholarship in these fields are laughable; see how Affilia: Journal of Women and Social Work accepted for publication a form of Mein Kampf, rewritten to use more modern inclusive and feminist language [0] [1]. If your field of study is so epistemically bankrupt and your systems of review so defective as to not be able to identify Nazi ideology when a few words are swapped around, and to then accept those ideas for publication, it's not clear to me that you should be receiving any funding at all - particularly when it's those same fields that are so vocally and vociferously against this ideology. [0] http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/our_struggle_is_my_struggle.pdf http://norskk.is/bytta/menn/our_struggle_is_my_struggle.pdf [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair
- spacemadness 1y agoSounds like you have an axe to grind.
- sunshine-o 1y ago[flagged]
- rsynnott 1y agoI wouldn't read all that much into polling two years out, especially given that traditionally they don't do great in the second round. The French presidency also has a somewhat lesser scope to fuck everything up than the US presidency has, and then of course there is Europe (even amongst the ol' Nazis, pretty much all talk of Frexit has evaporated after the object lesson of Brexit).
- kashunstva 1y ago> What are those clowns gonna do? go back to the US or find a next country to travel to? … Researchers are supposed to think long term I will ignore the ad hominem part of your argument because it’s mean-spirited and does nothing to contribute to the discussion. Instead I would focus on the reality of research funding. Liking or disliking the current administration has little or nothing to do with their decision to immigrate. Their field of expertise is an area known to be a target of this administration’s skepticism; and given that they have been capriciously withdrawing funding from numerous disciplines, its logical they will do the same here. What would you suggest they do for four years (or more) while their research is unfunded?
- _htpa 1y ago[flagged]
- saubeidl 1y ago... because?
- oytis 1y agoWell, lots of them literally fled from an imminent death threat.
- epistasis 1y agoMost of them fled before they knew of a the death threat. What Nazis looked like early on is pretty much exactly what's going on in the US.
- saubeidl 1y agoCase in point: "We Study Fascism, and We’re Leaving the U.S." https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/14/opinion/yale-canada-fascism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/14/opinion/yale-canada-fasci...
- oytis 1y agoThat's very touching, but not very nuanced - which is fine for a 6 minute video, but maybe it's just not the right format for this topic. Like, yes, if the regime is planning extermination of your people, you'd better run as soon as possible. But in case of milder authoritarian regimes like Russia, emigration only made ths regime fiercer and stronger as society gets more homogeneous when dissenters leave. Centres of resistance in safe places is a fairy tail, you can't resist if you are not there. I think it's way too early to give up on America - the authoritarian turn there has just started, and it's a duty of Americans to stop it while it's still possible. Otherwise eventually they will discover they have nowhere to run, it's going to have a domino effect if American democracy falls
- wonderwonder 1y ago[flagged]
- greesil 1y agoClimate science, space physics, planetary sciences, astronomy all heavily impacted. MRNA research, cut. There are so many cuts it's hard to keep track of. So no it's not just whatever things you think are "woke". And, this is done not to save money but as a deliberate anti science agenda.
- bilbo0s 1y agoJust, Devil's Advocate.. but what if they think Climate science, space physics, planetary sciences, astronomy..MRNA research are "Woke"? I don't agree with them, but I do know that "Woke" means a lot of things to these people.
- wonderwonder 1y ago[flagged]
- greesil 1y agoYes all the scientists do this, which is why they were all defunded /s
- saubeidl 1y agoYou are arguing with a strawman of your own making.
- wonderwonder 1y agoI stated I have no sympathy for researchers from institutions that actively pushed antisemitism. I was told that this means I am anti-woke and anti-science. Ok
- probably_wrong 1y ago> The university’s president insisted that participants in the “Safe Place for Science” program would be paid the same wages as French researchers. The statement sought to appease concerns within France’s academic community that money would now be focused on drawing U.S. scientists whereas local researchers have long complained of insufficient funding. I think the University's president is being cheeky or directly obtuse. Sure, US refugee researchers will get the same wage as a French researcher, but that's poor comfort for the French researchers who would have otherwise gotten those positions. I understand that the University is aiming at getting top researchers for peanuts which wouldn't be a bad deal for French science as a whole, but it is still a bad deal for the French science community.
- busterarm 1y agoAnd the ascending French political right will paint this as a continuance of decades of French policy prioritizing immigrants over French people. So when they eventually have the political reigns, this policy will end and these researchers will have to start over somewhere else.
- saubeidl 1y agoI don't think the cordon sanitaire will break any time soon.
- kouru225 1y agoYou think it’s a bad thing that French researchers will have direct access to the “top researchers”??? Sounds like a major benefit to French researchers
- saubeidl 1y agoI think they're talking about other French researchers, which will now have to compete with these "refugees" for positions.
- probably_wrong 1y agoIt's only a benefit for the French researchers who can get a position in France. Those who can't are already forced to emigrate (and we're back to where we started) or to quit science entirely. But retention is also a problem. How many of those scientists will stay in Aix-Marseille? Refugees, almost by definition, go back to their country once things calm down. And life in a country where you don't speak the language is not conducive to staying there long. I'm not saying everything will be bad - there's a plus associated to getting great minds for cheap. But if I were a French scientist fighting for grants I would definitely feel odd about my country explicitly telling me "French need not apply".
- curiousgal 1y agoI genuinely feel for them. This is nothing but a stunt, once they have to renew their visas and experience the systemic anti-immigration bureaucratic machine they will regret moving there.
- archagon 1y agoBruh. We have politicians in the US who are literally laughing about feeding immigrants to alligators: https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article309772500.html https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article30...
- linotype 1y ago> Speaking from the university’s hilltop astrophysics lab, AMU President Eric Berton likened the situation to that of European academics who fled persecution by Nazi Germany both before and during World War II. This is offensive on so many levels, not least of which to history.
- saubeidl 1y agoExperts in the rise of fascism disagree to the point that they, too, have fled the country: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/14/opinion/yale-canada-fascism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/14/opinion/yale-canada-fasci...
- sofixa 1y agoWhy is it offensive? The current US administration has an outgroup they say ludicrous things about (do you remember the "eating pets" bit?), and have started rounding them up (by masked men in unidentified vehicles and without uniforms) with no due process to send to camps (often abroad). Various scientific research areas have also been the focus of extensive and frankly asinine criticism. Do you remember when the orange guy drew a hurricane with a sharpie? Or when he proposed nuking it? Or when various research funding was killed by DOGE, often with blatant misrepresentations of what the research was? What about the brain dead woman kept as an incubator? Various media organisations have been sued on flimsy at best pretenses to silence them (like the CBS trial which was just settled). If anyone is failing to see the similarities to other historical far right rises to and centralisation of power, they're lacking in knowledge on these, or stand to benefit.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- linotype 1y agoIt’s offensive because it compares the idiotic and fascist behavior of the current US administration with the behavior of the European Nazis, who murdered millions during the Holocaust, downplaying the massive suffering caused by the Germans.
- aaron695 1y ago[dead]