3 ms·

Mercenaries over missionaries. Many employers want employees to act like cult members. But then when going gets tough, those are often the first laid off, and

Mercenaries over missionaries. Many employers want employees to act like cult members. But then when going gets tough, those are often the first laid off, and the least prepared for it. Employers, you can't have it both ways. As an employee don't get fooled.

neves 1y ago
We are not a company, we are a family
- softwaredoug 1y ago
  These CEOs will be the first to say "we are a team, not a family" when they do layoffs.
  - kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
    "I have decided that you need to go spend more time with your family. Really I'm just doing you a favor."
  - anshumankmr 1y ago
    Relevant Silicon Valley Scene:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u48vYSLvKNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u48vYSLvKNQ
- kayodelycaon 1y ago
  Ferengi Rules of Acquisition: #6: Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity. #111: Treat people in your debt like family… exploit them. #211: Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them.
  - belter 1y ago
    #91: Your boss is only worth what he pays you.
- meepmorp 1y ago
  Well, we're a family, but you're still being disowned at layoff time
sailfast 1y ago
1000x this. You should ideally feel like you’re part of a great group of folks and doing good work - but this is not a guarantee of anything at all. When it comes down to it, you’re expendable when your leadership is backed into a corner.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ryeguy_24 1y ago
100% agree. There is no reason for employees to be loyal to a company. LLM building is not some religious work. It’s machine learning on big data. Always do what is best for you because companies don’t act like loyal humans, they act like large organizations that aren’t always fair or rationale or logical in their decisions.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  > LLM building is not some religious work. To a lot of tech leadership, it is. The belief in AGI as a savior figure is a driving motivator. Just listen to how Altman, Thiel or Musk talk about it.
  - foobiekr 1y ago
    That’s how they talk about it publicly. Internally I can attest that the companies for two of the three you list are not like that internally at all. It’s all marketing, outwardly focused.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      I believe it's the opposite. They don't dare say their ridiculous tech cult stuff to their employees, but it's what they truly believe. AGI is their capitalist savior, here to redeem a failing system from having to pay pesky workers.
      - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
        "Tech founders" for whom the "technology" part is the thing always getting in the way of the "just the money and buzzwords" part. Now they think they can automate it away. 25+ years in this industry and I still find it striking how different the perspective between the "money" side and the "engineering" side is... on the same products/companies/ideas.
  - belter 1y ago
    > Just listen to how Altman, Thiel or Musk talk about it. It’s surprising how little they seem to have thought it through. AGI is unlikely to appear in the next 25 years, but even if, as a mental exercise, you accept it might happen, it reveals it's paradox: If AGI is possible, it destroys its own value as a defensible business asset. Like electricity, nuclear weapons, or space travel , once the blueprint exists, others will follow. And once multiple AGIs exist, each will be capable of rediscovering and accelerating every scientific and technological advancement. AGI isn’t a moat. AGI is what kills the moat.
quijoteuniv 1y ago
Only be loyal to doing work :)
asoneth 1y ago
> Employers, you can't have it both ways. Exactly. Though you can learn a lot about an employer by how it has conducted layoffs. Did they cut profits and management salaries and attempt to reassign people first? Did they provide generous payouts to laid off employees? If the answer to any of these questions is no then they're not worth committing to.
stevenAthompson 1y ago
A Ronin is just a Samurai who has learned his lesson.
ramoz 1y ago
Missionaries https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt7BPxHqbkU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt7BPxHqbkU
bko 1y ago
I think there's more to work than just taking home a salary. Not equally true among all professions and times in your life. But most jobs I took were for less money with questionable upside. I just wanted to work on something else or with different people. The best thing about work is the focus on whatever you're doing. Maybe you're not saving the world but it's great to go in to have one goal that everyone goes towards. And you get excited when you see your contributions make a difference or you build great product. You can laugh and say I was part of a 'cult', but it sure beats working a misearble job for just a slightly higher paycheck.
anshumankmr 1y ago
Only place you can say if you are an employee and a missionary is well if you are a missionary or working in a charity/ NGO etc trying to help people/animals etc. The rest of us are mercenaries only.
- ysofunny 1y ago
  or if you own the company
  - neves 1y ago
    It's also nice to work for the government. At least if you work in a functional democracy where state bureaucrats can't be fired at a dictator's whim.
    - anshumankmr 1y ago
      Be careful what you wish for... cause too far in the other way you get "babu" culture which I feel is one the things that has ruined India.
foobiekr 1y ago
During the first ever layoff at $company in 2001, part of the dotcom implosion, one of my coworkers who got whacked complained that it didn’t make sense as he was one of the companies biggest boosters and believers. It was supremely interesting to me that he thought the company cared about that at all. I couldn’t get my head around it. He was completely serious, he kept arguing that his loyalty was an asset. He was much more experienced than me (I was barely two years working). In hindsight, I think it is true that companies value that in a way. I’ve come to appreciate people who just stick it out for awhile. I try and make sure their comp makes it worth their while. They are so much less annoying to deal with than the assholes who constantly bitch or moan about doing what they’re paid for. But as a personal strategy, it’s a poor one. You should never love or be loyal to something that can’t love you back.
- serial_dev 1y ago
  Companies appreciate loyalty… as long as long as it doesn’t cost them anything. The moment you ask for more money or they need to reduce the workforce, all of that goes out the window.
- citizenpaul 1y ago
  The one and ONLY way I've ever seen "company" loyalty rewarded in any way is if you have a DIRECT relationship with a top level senior manager (C-suite). They will specifically protect you if they truly believe you are on "their side" and you are at their beck and call.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - octo888 1y ago
    Always a fun game to watch a new C suite get hired and then figure out which of the news hires that follow are their mates.
- yibg 1y ago
  I think loyalty has value to the company but not as much as people think. To simplify it, multiple things contribute to "value" and loyalty is just a small part of it.
m3kw9 1y ago
That’s because you don’t believe/realize in the mission of the product and its impact to society. When if work at Microsoft, you are just working to make MS money as they are like a giant machine. That said it seems like every worker can be replaced. Lost stars replaced by new stars
Henchman21 1y ago
They sure can have it both ways. They do now.
tracker1 1y ago
Especially for an organization like OpenAI that completely twisted its original message in favor of commercialization. The entire missionary bit is BS trying to get people to stay out of a sense of what exactly? I'm all for having loyalty to people and organizations that show the same. Eventually it can and will shift. I've seen management changed out from over me more times than I can count at this point. Don't get caught off guard. It's even worse in the current dev/tech job market where wages are being pushed down around 2010 levels. I've been working two jobs just to keep up with expenses since I've been unable to match my more recent prior income. One ended recently, and looking for a new second job.
HellDunkel 1y ago
No. The cult members are less likely to be laid off. Simply because they don‘t stand out and provide less surface for attack.

neves 1y ago

We are not a company, we are a family

softwaredoug 1y ago
These CEOs will be the first to say "we are a team, not a family" when they do layoffs.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  "I have decided that you need to go spend more time with your family. Really I'm just doing you a favor."
- anshumankmr 1y ago
  Relevant Silicon Valley Scene:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u48vYSLvKNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u48vYSLvKNQ
kayodelycaon 1y ago
Ferengi Rules of Acquisition: #6: Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity. #111: Treat people in your debt like family… exploit them. #211: Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them.
- belter 1y ago
  #91: Your boss is only worth what he pays you.
meepmorp 1y ago
Well, we're a family, but you're still being disowned at layoff time

sailfast 1y ago

1000x this. You should ideally feel like you’re part of a great group of folks and doing good work - but this is not a guarantee of anything at all. When it comes down to it, you’re expendable when your leadership is backed into a corner.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ryeguy_24 1y ago

100% agree. There is no reason for employees to be loyal to a company. LLM building is not some religious work. It’s machine learning on big data. Always do what is best for you because companies don’t act like loyal humans, they act like large organizations that aren’t always fair or rationale or logical in their decisions.

saubeidl 1y ago
> LLM building is not some religious work. To a lot of tech leadership, it is. The belief in AGI as a savior figure is a driving motivator. Just listen to how Altman, Thiel or Musk talk about it.
- foobiekr 1y ago
  That’s how they talk about it publicly. Internally I can attest that the companies for two of the three you list are not like that internally at all. It’s all marketing, outwardly focused.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    I believe it's the opposite. They don't dare say their ridiculous tech cult stuff to their employees, but it's what they truly believe. AGI is their capitalist savior, here to redeem a failing system from having to pay pesky workers.
    - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
      "Tech founders" for whom the "technology" part is the thing always getting in the way of the "just the money and buzzwords" part. Now they think they can automate it away. 25+ years in this industry and I still find it striking how different the perspective between the "money" side and the "engineering" side is... on the same products/companies/ideas.
- belter 1y ago
  > Just listen to how Altman, Thiel or Musk talk about it. It’s surprising how little they seem to have thought it through. AGI is unlikely to appear in the next 25 years, but even if, as a mental exercise, you accept it might happen, it reveals it's paradox: If AGI is possible, it destroys its own value as a defensible business asset. Like electricity, nuclear weapons, or space travel , once the blueprint exists, others will follow. And once multiple AGIs exist, each will be capable of rediscovering and accelerating every scientific and technological advancement. AGI isn’t a moat. AGI is what kills the moat.

quijoteuniv 1y ago

Only be loyal to doing work :)

asoneth 1y ago

> Employers, you can't have it both ways. Exactly. Though you can learn a lot about an employer by how it has conducted layoffs. Did they cut profits and management salaries and attempt to reassign people first? Did they provide generous payouts to laid off employees? If the answer to any of these questions is no then they're not worth committing to.

stevenAthompson 1y ago

A Ronin is just a Samurai who has learned his lesson.

ramoz 1y ago

Missionaries https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt7BPxHqbkU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt7BPxHqbkU

bko 1y ago

I think there's more to work than just taking home a salary. Not equally true among all professions and times in your life. But most jobs I took were for less money with questionable upside. I just wanted to work on something else or with different people. The best thing about work is the focus on whatever you're doing. Maybe you're not saving the world but it's great to go in to have one goal that everyone goes towards. And you get excited when you see your contributions make a difference or you build great product. You can laugh and say I was part of a 'cult', but it sure beats working a misearble job for just a slightly higher paycheck.

anshumankmr 1y ago

Only place you can say if you are an employee and a missionary is well if you are a missionary or working in a charity/ NGO etc trying to help people/animals etc. The rest of us are mercenaries only.

ysofunny 1y ago
or if you own the company
- neves 1y ago
  It's also nice to work for the government. At least if you work in a functional democracy where state bureaucrats can't be fired at a dictator's whim.
  - anshumankmr 1y ago
    Be careful what you wish for... cause too far in the other way you get "babu" culture which I feel is one the things that has ruined India.

foobiekr 1y ago

During the first ever layoff at $company in 2001, part of the dotcom implosion, one of my coworkers who got whacked complained that it didn’t make sense as he was one of the companies biggest boosters and believers. It was supremely interesting to me that he thought the company cared about that at all. I couldn’t get my head around it. He was completely serious, he kept arguing that his loyalty was an asset. He was much more experienced than me (I was barely two years working). In hindsight, I think it is true that companies value that in a way. I’ve come to appreciate people who just stick it out for awhile. I try and make sure their comp makes it worth their while. They are so much less annoying to deal with than the assholes who constantly bitch or moan about doing what they’re paid for. But as a personal strategy, it’s a poor one. You should never love or be loyal to something that can’t love you back.

serial_dev 1y ago
Companies appreciate loyalty… as long as long as it doesn’t cost them anything. The moment you ask for more money or they need to reduce the workforce, all of that goes out the window.
citizenpaul 1y ago
The one and ONLY way I've ever seen "company" loyalty rewarded in any way is if you have a DIRECT relationship with a top level senior manager (C-suite). They will specifically protect you if they truly believe you are on "their side" and you are at their beck and call.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- octo888 1y ago
  Always a fun game to watch a new C suite get hired and then figure out which of the news hires that follow are their mates.
yibg 1y ago
I think loyalty has value to the company but not as much as people think. To simplify it, multiple things contribute to "value" and loyalty is just a small part of it.

m3kw9 1y ago

That’s because you don’t believe/realize in the mission of the product and its impact to society. When if work at Microsoft, you are just working to make MS money as they are like a giant machine. That said it seems like every worker can be replaced. Lost stars replaced by new stars

Henchman21 1y ago

They sure can have it both ways. They do now.

tracker1 1y ago

Especially for an organization like OpenAI that completely twisted its original message in favor of commercialization. The entire missionary bit is BS trying to get people to stay out of a sense of what exactly? I'm all for having loyalty to people and organizations that show the same. Eventually it can and will shift. I've seen management changed out from over me more times than I can count at this point. Don't get caught off guard. It's even worse in the current dev/tech job market where wages are being pushed down around 2010 levels. I've been working two jobs just to keep up with expenses since I've been unable to match my more recent prior income. One ended recently, and looking for a new second job.

HellDunkel 1y ago

No. The cult members are less likely to be laid off. Simply because they don‘t stand out and provide less surface for attack.