4 ms·

So maybe those user agents (the browsers and screen readers) should fix their shit instead. Crazy idea, I know.

cluckindan 1y ago
They definitely should. However, those will be large investments, so at least JAWS and VoiceOver are going to be waiting for WCAG 3.0 before tackling that. NVDA is open source, so I guess you could help them out with it. ;-) The larger issue is that developing software for multiple platforms and multiple browsers and multiple different types of human interface devices (from eye tracking to sip-and-puff joysticks) from dozens of vendors is an extremely complex affair. Users may even employ multiple different screen readers in different contexts to work around incompatibilities.
- snickerdoodle12 1y ago
  The point is that it's not really my (or other web developers) their responsibility that some 3rd party tool is garbage. It's like designing your whole website around some esoteric browser's behavior that less than 1% of your users use. Sure, sure, we need to accommodate people with disabilities. First step to get there is to make sure the accessibility software isn't trash.
  - cluckindan 1y ago
    I get where you’re coming from, but this garbage is not optional everywhere around the world. Not in the US, even less in the EU. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. The ADA, specifically Title III, applies to public accommodations (including websites), requiring them to be accessible. Section 508 mandates that federal agencies ensure their electronic and information technology, including websites, is accessible to people with disabilities. The EU Web Accessibility Directive and the European Accessibility Act (EAA) are key pieces of legislation aimed at improving digital accessibility for people with disabilities within the European Union. The Directive focuses on public sector websites and mobile applications, while the EAA expands accessibility requirements to a wider range of products and services, including those in e-commerce, banking, and travel.
    - snickerdoodle12 1y ago
      Yes, and it's an embarrassment and a failure to legislate the right thing.
      - komali2 1y ago
        So either fix it by changing the legislation, or fix it by changing the FOSS software... or do the only thing you can actually do right now which is implement websites in a way that's most likely to consistently work well with existing a11y solutions.
        snickerdoodle12 1y ago
        Yes sir, thank you sir, I will never complain about stupid laws again, sir. Is this how you want these discussions to go?
        komali2 1y ago
        > complain I guess at some point this button gets a bit worn out and I start wondering what pushing the "do something about it" button will do.
        snickerdoodle12 1y ago
        You can implement your websites with accessibility in mind while also acknowledging its ridiculous how every web developer has to spend time on that because screen readers are terrible, and responsibility somehow got shifted to every web developer ever instead of the handful of companies making screen readers.
        komali2 1y ago
        I don't loop within loops, I free memory after I allocate it, and I add aria tags to html elements. I don't really see the big deal, just seems like a normal part of the job.
DrewADesign 1y ago
After a couple decades of relying on pragmatic hacks and loose conventions while hoping developers would start to take accessibility standards seriously, most just seemed to give up hope and concentrate on making software blind people can actually use. And that happened, like, a decade ago.

They definitely should. However, those will be large investments, so at least JAWS and VoiceOver are going to be waiting for WCAG 3.0 before tackling that. NVDA is open source, so I guess you could help them out with it. ;-) The larger issue is that developing software for multiple platforms and multiple browsers and multiple different types of human interface devices (from eye tracking to sip-and-puff joysticks) from dozens of vendors is an extremely complex affair. Users may even employ multiple different screen readers in different contexts to work around incompatibilities.

snickerdoodle12 1y ago
The point is that it's not really my (or other web developers) their responsibility that some 3rd party tool is garbage. It's like designing your whole website around some esoteric browser's behavior that less than 1% of your users use. Sure, sure, we need to accommodate people with disabilities. First step to get there is to make sure the accessibility software isn't trash.
- cluckindan 1y ago
  I get where you’re coming from, but this garbage is not optional everywhere around the world. Not in the US, even less in the EU. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act. The ADA, specifically Title III, applies to public accommodations (including websites), requiring them to be accessible. Section 508 mandates that federal agencies ensure their electronic and information technology, including websites, is accessible to people with disabilities. The EU Web Accessibility Directive and the European Accessibility Act (EAA) are key pieces of legislation aimed at improving digital accessibility for people with disabilities within the European Union. The Directive focuses on public sector websites and mobile applications, while the EAA expands accessibility requirements to a wider range of products and services, including those in e-commerce, banking, and travel.
  - snickerdoodle12 1y ago
    Yes, and it's an embarrassment and a failure to legislate the right thing.
    - komali2 1y ago
      So either fix it by changing the legislation, or fix it by changing the FOSS software... or do the only thing you can actually do right now which is implement websites in a way that's most likely to consistently work well with existing a11y solutions.
      - snickerdoodle12 1y ago
        Yes sir, thank you sir, I will never complain about stupid laws again, sir. Is this how you want these discussions to go?
        komali2 1y ago
        > complain I guess at some point this button gets a bit worn out and I start wondering what pushing the "do something about it" button will do.
        snickerdoodle12 1y ago
        You can implement your websites with accessibility in mind while also acknowledging its ridiculous how every web developer has to spend time on that because screen readers are terrible, and responsibility somehow got shifted to every web developer ever instead of the handful of companies making screen readers.
        komali2 1y ago
        I don't loop within loops, I free memory after I allocate it, and I add aria tags to html elements. I don't really see the big deal, just seems like a normal part of the job.

DrewADesign 1y ago

After a couple decades of relying on pragmatic hacks and loose conventions while hoping developers would start to take accessibility standards seriously, most just seemed to give up hope and concentrate on making software blind people can actually use. And that happened, like, a decade ago.