4 ms·

IANAL but the EU legislation is very broad about what it covers e.g. "AI systems should fall within the scope of this Regulation even when they are neither pla

IANAL but the EU legislation is very broad about what it covers e.g. "AI systems should fall within the scope of this Regulation even when they are neither placed on the market, nor put into service, nor used in the Union." I don't really understand the limits of it's scope e.g. the difference between making a system available vs. controlling how it's used is not clear to me. I don't think you can escape the regulation of high-risk uses by offering a "general purpose" AI with no controls on how it's used. In terms of the open-source nature - I can see it being treated like giving away any other regulated product e.g. medication, cars, safety equipment etc. The lack of cost won't transfer the liability from the supplier to the consumer. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52021PC0206 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52...

foursilly 1y ago
Thanks for all that information, I agree with you that the EU legislation is very broad. In my opinion, this justifies or motivates the inclusion of the ban in the EU.
- hammock 1y ago
  What happens if you ignore overly broad EU regulations? Does your home country observe the EU’s violation of its sovereignty and throw you in a home country jail? Does Brussels throw you in an EU jail? What country hosts the EU jail? Not to sound too snarky (just a little snarky), I’m just curious how it all works.
  - coliveira 1y ago
    As always, EU and USA courts will act as if they had jurisdiction over the rest of the world and motivate bans and similar measures against other countries.
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    Realistically lots of multi-national companies have an EU presence, so concerns about “violating sovereignty” are sorta moot. Huawei probably wants to do business in the EU which requires following EU law. As an aside: in general a sovereign country can do whatever they want in their own territory, this includes the right of the country to bind itself to treaties. So in your hypothetical, > Does your home country observe the EU’s violation of its sovereignty and throw you in a home country jail? This doesn’t look like a violation of sovereignty to me; the non-EU has decided to enforce an EU law. Why? I don’t know, maybe it makes business easier for the multinational companies of the non-EU country. Countries can also do things like apply secondary sanctions to an entity. So, again hypothetically, the EU doesn’t need to be able to enforce a ruling against you. They can make you toxic to anyone who wants to do business in the EU.
  - lawlessone 1y ago
    >What happens if you ignore overly broad EU regulations? Not much It's usually up to the the member states to implement the EU regulation. As you can see from Hungary with Orban in recent years though the EU's response is slow and lacking. When there is consensus things can move a lot faster though.
  - baobun 1y ago
    You could lose government contracts, get sanctioned, get banned. Already happening to Huawei and presumably the EU market is significant to them.
  - Mars008 1y ago
    Arrest of Telegram's cofounder in France is an example of EU laws and enforcement.
ricardobeat 1y ago
Continuing that quote: > for example of an operator established in the Union that contracts certain services to an operator established outside the Union in relation to an activity to be performed by an AI system that would qualify as high-risk and whose effects impact natural persons located in the Union. > this Regulation should also apply to providers and users of AI systems that are established in a third country, to the extent the output produced by those systems is used in the Union Otherwise it seems to reach way beyond what it actually is. Explicitly prohibiting EU usage in the license is probably a move to reduce liability under the eyes of those “used in the Union” clauses.
- Fluorescence 1y ago
  It would be a misreading to think that example implies a more limited scope. The passage as a whole is pretty clear why they are they so broad: in order to avoid circumvention. I can understand why - it seems to be both a necessary yet unacceptable way to write laws! The passage continues: "To prevent the circumvention of this Regulation and to ensure an effective protection of natural persons located in the Union, this Regulation should also apply to providers and users of AI systems that are established in a third country, to the extent the output produced by those systems is used in the Union." An AI would come under this regulation even it's just the outputs that are used in the EU. Interesting to think about what that could lead to.
  - fc417fc802 1y ago
    The EU can claim whatever it wants (much like the US does at times) but in reality only those doing business within the EU markets fall under their legal jurisdiction. Which I assume is exactly why that clause is in the license - to protect the ability to do business within the EU in the future without unexpectedly suffering liability for their public AI research. Conversely, I as an individual don't need to worry about it since I don't live there (similar stories for various other overly broad laws). I agree with you that the usefulness of that clause is suspect given how broad the wording of that law is. How do other companies publishing open models deal with this? For example Meta.

foursilly 1y ago

Thanks for all that information, I agree with you that the EU legislation is very broad. In my opinion, this justifies or motivates the inclusion of the ban in the EU.

hammock 1y ago
What happens if you ignore overly broad EU regulations? Does your home country observe the EU’s violation of its sovereignty and throw you in a home country jail? Does Brussels throw you in an EU jail? What country hosts the EU jail? Not to sound too snarky (just a little snarky), I’m just curious how it all works.
- coliveira 1y ago
  As always, EU and USA courts will act as if they had jurisdiction over the rest of the world and motivate bans and similar measures against other countries.
- bee_rider 1y ago
  Realistically lots of multi-national companies have an EU presence, so concerns about “violating sovereignty” are sorta moot. Huawei probably wants to do business in the EU which requires following EU law. As an aside: in general a sovereign country can do whatever they want in their own territory, this includes the right of the country to bind itself to treaties. So in your hypothetical, > Does your home country observe the EU’s violation of its sovereignty and throw you in a home country jail? This doesn’t look like a violation of sovereignty to me; the non-EU has decided to enforce an EU law. Why? I don’t know, maybe it makes business easier for the multinational companies of the non-EU country. Countries can also do things like apply secondary sanctions to an entity. So, again hypothetically, the EU doesn’t need to be able to enforce a ruling against you. They can make you toxic to anyone who wants to do business in the EU.
- lawlessone 1y ago
  >What happens if you ignore overly broad EU regulations? Not much It's usually up to the the member states to implement the EU regulation. As you can see from Hungary with Orban in recent years though the EU's response is slow and lacking. When there is consensus things can move a lot faster though.
- baobun 1y ago
  You could lose government contracts, get sanctioned, get banned. Already happening to Huawei and presumably the EU market is significant to them.
- Mars008 1y ago
  Arrest of Telegram's cofounder in France is an example of EU laws and enforcement.

ricardobeat 1y ago

Continuing that quote: > for example of an operator established in the Union that contracts certain services to an operator established outside the Union in relation to an activity to be performed by an AI system that would qualify as high-risk and whose effects impact natural persons located in the Union. > this Regulation should also apply to providers and users of AI systems that are established in a third country, to the extent the output produced by those systems is used in the Union Otherwise it seems to reach way beyond what it actually is. Explicitly prohibiting EU usage in the license is probably a move to reduce liability under the eyes of those “used in the Union” clauses.

Fluorescence 1y ago
It would be a misreading to think that example implies a more limited scope. The passage as a whole is pretty clear why they are they so broad: in order to avoid circumvention. I can understand why - it seems to be both a necessary yet unacceptable way to write laws! The passage continues: "To prevent the circumvention of this Regulation and to ensure an effective protection of natural persons located in the Union, this Regulation should also apply to providers and users of AI systems that are established in a third country, to the extent the output produced by those systems is used in the Union." An AI would come under this regulation even it's just the outputs that are used in the EU. Interesting to think about what that could lead to.
- fc417fc802 1y ago
  The EU can claim whatever it wants (much like the US does at times) but in reality only those doing business within the EU markets fall under their legal jurisdiction. Which I assume is exactly why that clause is in the license - to protect the ability to do business within the EU in the future without unexpectedly suffering liability for their public AI research. Conversely, I as an individual don't need to worry about it since I don't live there (similar stories for various other overly broad laws). I agree with you that the usefulness of that clause is suspect given how broad the wording of that law is. How do other companies publishing open models deal with this? For example Meta.