14 ms·

Don’t drink the startup Kool-Aid – just find a problem and try to solve it

195 points by adamfletcher 14y ago

jaxus 14y ago
There are a ton of small firms that are new, lean, and operate primarily via websites. I think a lot of them are totally oblivious/unconcerned about the start up tech scene. They are primarily concerned with running profitable businesses.
jackkinsella 14y ago
Small online business owner here, chiming in. I believe the overuse of the word startup comes from a certain kind of pretentiousness, a want to associate one's own small-business, small-market, technically trivial, mom-and-pop online business with world leaders like Facebook and Google. Making the linguistic link is good for the founder's ego, and even better for convincing naïve investors to fund barely viable visions. If you're one of the many non-technical teams who cannot build products yourselves and have an idea with dubious money-making prospects then you can have a great adventure on half a million euro of dumb money, and believe me many founders in Berlin are. I've lived in Berlin since January and during that time I witnessed a rising hipster startup culture. Unskilled and unexperienced college graduates with big egos raise dumb money, hire programmers to build code they don't understand, then spend their days 'networking' at trendy hotels in down-town, throwing minimal techno parties and going on trips across Europe for 'business and pleasure'. It's a great lifestyle, and I've nothing against people enjoying themselves - it's certainly my priority now. But I find this sort of carry on repugnant when an investor's money is at stake. Viaweb was founded by PHD students at MIT, one who invented the worm and the other who wrote timeless Common Lisp textbooks. The modern waterfall of self-professed 'startups' are run by guys and girls who watched 'How to Build a Blog in 15 minutes using Rails' then decided they were the next Steve Jobs. Let's get realistic here - building a web app or an Iphone app these days is no more high-tech than a mechanic fixing your broken car. Drop the ego, drop the pretense - the majority of business now labelled as startups are small online businesses and there's nothing wrong with that.
- nihonjon 14y ago
  I can back Jack in saying the Berlin startup culture is vommit-inducing.
- cjkarr 14y ago
  "Viacom was founded by PHD students at MIT..." Wasn't it Viaweb? Big difference between Viacom (the media conglomerate) and Viaweb, the online shop software.
  - jackkinsella 14y ago
    Fixed. I had Viacom on my brain for other reasons resulting in a nasty typo.
- simonbrown 14y ago
  Most startup founders use tutorials to build technically trivial web/iphone apps, and yet they hire programmers and can't build products themselves?
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  That is what a 'bubble' looks like. People with more money than sense giving it to people because those people are offering up what ever is the bubble today. In this case "startup". The dumb money will be lost, the "startup founders" will slink away (for the most part) into nondescript corporate jobs, and saying you are doing a "startup" will become a bad thing. Well at least that was what happened here in the Bay Area during the 90's.
- tylermauthe 14y ago
  As college student who grew up watching Zuck "get rich easy", I was easily taken in by the Hipster startup culture. Very unfortunately for me, I only found out about this fantastic site (Hacker News) about 5 months ago. By this time, the hipster ethos was rampant and I was swept up by it. My ego deeply resonated with their fancy promises and extravagant buzz words. However, there is a thread of hope. An undercurrent of truth which I have recently started to uncover within the layers of crud. I just read Paul Graham's essay Beating the Averages last night and realized that I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about. Lately there has been a growing thread of dissatisfaction with Hacker News. It feels as though the original community has become diluted by an influx of folks like myself, eager to make their mark but too naïve to really do anything constructive (and too naïve to realize we’re naïve). But we are learning. So, Hacker News, thanks for putting up with us noobs! I realize now that I won’t be the next Zuck, but if I keep listening and learning from HN, I just might make a dent in the universe.
nihonjon 14y ago
Anyone else tired of all these entrepreneur/startup blogs and articles? It's a bubble in itself. Now I skip past them like I skip tabloid and gossip "articles".
- mindcrime 14y ago
  You have to understand, before it was called "Hacker News", this was "Startup News". A heavy focus on startup culture and entrepreneurship is a part of the DNA of this site. I expect it will always be that way. Complaining about startup / entrepreneur articles here is almost akin to getting in the water and then complaining that you got wet.
  - alberich 14y ago
    Funny that a lot of articles here wouldn't really be categorized as "hacker" news :) Lately, everything is "hacking". Seems like the word lost its meaning.
    - gioele 14y ago
      And nice, playful hacks get discarded as "Totally unusable." because they do not work on latest iOS. [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4442829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4442829
    - nirvana 14y ago
      When I've pointed it out, people have told me that political diatribes are appropriate here because "x is relevant to hackers and this is for anything hackers find relevant".
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      It's been like that forever - "hack" has become a buzzwordy synonym for "clever trick". Found a cool way to get the word out on your product? You've "hacked marketing". Have an increment improvement on an existing concept? You've "hacked" that vertical. Interesting new job posting system? "Hacked recruitment". I'm pretty sick of this community/field forcibly inventing words for every old thing instead of just calling it like it is - and this includes all of the "growth hacker" crap over the last few days. We're doing the same shit everyone else has been doing for hundreds of years, except we've changed the context to involve technology. These buzzwordy exclusive words we use do not actually describe fundamentally different concepts, they're just opportunities to fall all over ourselves and fawn at ourselves in the mirror.
001sky 14y ago
In between all that succeeding and failing were a large number of businesses who didn’t really know what they were doing yet or how they would do that thing profitably. So, weren’t really businesses in the traditional sense and we needed a new word with which to call them. cheap to scale > scale per se > scale potential
yesimahuman 14y ago
I just blogged about something similar today called the Failure Fallacy (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4444523 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4444523). We are making it hard on ourselves to be successful because of the ideas and types of businesses we are drawn to create. We jump into crazy ideas with no provable business model or customer when we could experiment and apply customer validation to our potential product. Jumping in like a crazy person is glorified in our community because we love watching others do wild things and hope it will help us be more wild. I want this to change. More people should be running successful businesses, though they might not be instagrams. I want to see your unique touch on so many tired products and ideas.
josscrowcroft 14y ago
Fantastic writing style in this post - it somehow jumps out of the page, not sure how to describe it. Congrats. Only time I ever felt like giving up on my latest venture[1] was when I started trying to view it as a "startup" and thereby compared it to other "startups". I got really depressed for a week or so trying to be a "startup guy", which thankfully I didn't become. It was like the goals of the business (provide a killer service in order to fund my continuing education and frugal lifestyle) got replaced by the "be the coolest thing ever" startup vibe, which sucked. This article reminds me again that it's not a startup... it's a site that makes a little money by solving a common problem for developers like me, better than other people, and will hopefully make a little more money, once I've done some good marketing and solved that problem even better! [1] https://openexchangerates.org https://openexchangerates.org
- greenyoda 14y ago
  I looked at openexchangerates.org and it looks like a very useful service (real time exchange rates via a JSON API) that people would actually pay for. But there already seem to be other businesses competing in this space. I'm curious as to what advantages you provide compared to sites like xurrency.com or exchangerate-api.com.
  - josscrowcroft 14y ago
    Thanks, and good question - it's a very old industry in the web, so the main benefit is ease of implementation (and about to get even easier), highly responsive support, great community and remarkably low prices :o) - that said, I'd love to hear any thoughts you have on other advantages that could be provided - hit me up on twitter @josscrowcroft if you have any ideas.
- skyhook_mockups 14y ago
  ahhh please don't give up on openexchangerates.org, it's an awesome service which I'd be happy to pay for.
  - josscrowcroft 14y ago
nirvana 14y ago
The silicon valley Startup Kool-aid has a false dichotomy: You're either patio11[1], a "nobody" building a "lifestyle business" or you're making the next Instagram. Consequently we have a cargo cult mentality that has evolved. Lets compare these two: Location: "Obviously you need to be in Silicon Valley. This is where all the wannabe startup hipsters move to!" I mean, you can't go to a coffeeshop without hearing a harvard MBA who think's he's a programmer because he made an excel macro work once, talking about how he's going to disrupt multiple paradigms with his massive SoLoMo app they're building. "This is where it's all happening, man!"[5] "Japan? There's no startup scene in Japan. Hell, that's a 12 hour flight. You think VCs are going to fly 12 hours for a board meeting?" Business model: "Dude, if you charge money, like %90 of the people aren't going to use your product! But if you're free, and you've gamified your appointment calendar, people will share it! If you can get your virality factor to 2, you'll have a billion customers in 5 months!" "Oh, there will be a way to make money later, somehow, just look at google, twitter and Facebook!" [2] Funding: "If you're going to be scalable, you need bank, man! The VCS are in silicon valley, the VCs are critical to having a business. They'll give you great advice, connect you up with the other movers and shakers so you can have Cock-Tails Man!" (Yeah, I can't make myself sound like a startup hipster, I know.) "Without money, how are you going to build anything? How could you ever scale it? You have to start with money!" Company culture: "IF you see the CEO writing code, you've failed. You gotta delegate. I mean, never invest in a company run by a programmer, they'll spend all their time delighting in some technical solution that's super elegant but nobody at any cocktail party is going to give a damn about! I mean, what do customers care about how good you did something? They company has to be run by a people person-- so at the cocktail parties he[3] can network with other people! People's what drives business, and this is what gets business done!" Do they even have cocktail parties in Japan? Isn't liqueur outlawed or something there?[4] Advice: "You see with VCs, its not the money that's valuable, its the advice! They're going to be able to tell you the right moves and you'll be able to grow so much faster!" I can't contrast this with patio, because I don't know where he gets advice. But in my experience, VCs [can be] beyond clueless[6]. I've seen them force companies to shut down profitable businesses and focus on long shots (which had the nice side effect of making the company more desperate for the investment, and by drawing it all out the VC was able to get much better terms and take the whole thing when the company later sold, shutting out the founders and employees who got nothing.) I've seen VCs force product direction based on fads, and force the use of inappropriate technologies (provided by a company they had a relationship with, naturally) which caused product delay and ultimately a significant reduction in the value of the company on exit. Much of the investment process seems to be spending time getting investors up to speed so that they even understand what it is you're doing-- which maybe is one of the reasons they'd rather fund instagram than patio11. I mean, they don't know anything about the hair salon industry (his only clients as far as they can tell) but everyone likes to take instamatic pictures! And if you don't have a business model, you don't have to worry about the business model! [1] All respect to patio11. I think he's on the right track here, and he seemed to be the best example to use. Nothing derogatory said here about him or his business is meant that way, merely to characterize the people who would see him in a derogatory light. [2] Here's a bonus: Why is google's monetezation strategy significantly better than twitter an facebooks? It might turn out not to be if the latter two find a way to make it work, but right now, it works much better. [3] Always. No such thing as a She CEO, I mean, women just don't have the ruthlessness needed, amirite? [4] I don't think people are this naive about Japan in particular, but I hear them say the strangest stuff. [5] Somehow startup hipsters in the bay area speak with a style that's a cross between "Brah" and San Fran hippy from the 1970s. In my head. [6] This is why YC has had so much success, in part, as PG is not clueless and his vetting and blessing lets VCs outsource dealflow. I think angels are probably a lot less clueless, though I have less experience with them. Looking at Gabriel Weinbergs recent summary of his angel experience you see a very different approach than the mentality I'm laying out here.
protolif 14y ago
modal adverts make baby jesus cry.
aggge3 14y ago
Most of these "entrepreneurs" are just product/service designers. The problem is, the world of startups is starting to look like the counter at 7-11. We need real ideas, physical technology, not just some worthless app.
npguy 14y ago
Here is the real issue: finding problems. Here is why: Anyone who tracks startups knows these two conflicting facts: 1. Ideas are not everything – execution is key 2. It is extremely important to solve a problem that people would find value in, and therefore pay for. Summary: It is of course important to execute well and solve the problem, but the starting point is to know if the problem is worth getting solved. Now look at our education system through this new prism the flaw comes out very, very clearly the system today teaches problem solving, applying theory to practice etc but there is little to no emphasis on identifying problems. Think about your own school / college days for a second in how many instances were you given a situation, and were asked to identify problems to solve? The problem to be solved was always STATED nobody ever asked us to come up with a set of difficult problems to solve. Over time, this lack of practice in identifying problems translates into difficulties in spotting profitable opportunities. Even if we do, there is a lack of conviction and we end up pivoting multiple times. Our education system cultivates employees, not employers – to be one, you need to be trained not to solve a problem, but to identify one. For some reason HN would not allow me to submit the link for the above, it kept killing the post and any related query. Am trying to be reborn as a new guy on HN now.

195 points by adamfletcher 14y ago

jaxus 14y ago

There are a ton of small firms that are new, lean, and operate primarily via websites. I think a lot of them are totally oblivious/unconcerned about the start up tech scene. They are primarily concerned with running profitable businesses.

jackkinsella 14y ago

Small online business owner here, chiming in. I believe the overuse of the word startup comes from a certain kind of pretentiousness, a want to associate one's own small-business, small-market, technically trivial, mom-and-pop online business with world leaders like Facebook and Google. Making the linguistic link is good for the founder's ego, and even better for convincing naïve investors to fund barely viable visions. If you're one of the many non-technical teams who cannot build products yourselves and have an idea with dubious money-making prospects then you can have a great adventure on half a million euro of dumb money, and believe me many founders in Berlin are. I've lived in Berlin since January and during that time I witnessed a rising hipster startup culture. Unskilled and unexperienced college graduates with big egos raise dumb money, hire programmers to build code they don't understand, then spend their days 'networking' at trendy hotels in down-town, throwing minimal techno parties and going on trips across Europe for 'business and pleasure'. It's a great lifestyle, and I've nothing against people enjoying themselves - it's certainly my priority now. But I find this sort of carry on repugnant when an investor's money is at stake. Viaweb was founded by PHD students at MIT, one who invented the worm and the other who wrote timeless Common Lisp textbooks. The modern waterfall of self-professed 'startups' are run by guys and girls who watched 'How to Build a Blog in 15 minutes using Rails' then decided they were the next Steve Jobs. Let's get realistic here - building a web app or an Iphone app these days is no more high-tech than a mechanic fixing your broken car. Drop the ego, drop the pretense - the majority of business now labelled as startups are small online businesses and there's nothing wrong with that.

nihonjon 14y ago
I can back Jack in saying the Berlin startup culture is vommit-inducing.
cjkarr 14y ago
"Viacom was founded by PHD students at MIT..." Wasn't it Viaweb? Big difference between Viacom (the media conglomerate) and Viaweb, the online shop software.
- jackkinsella 14y ago
  Fixed. I had Viacom on my brain for other reasons resulting in a nasty typo.
simonbrown 14y ago
Most startup founders use tutorials to build technically trivial web/iphone apps, and yet they hire programmers and can't build products themselves?
ChuckMcM 14y ago
That is what a 'bubble' looks like. People with more money than sense giving it to people because those people are offering up what ever is the bubble today. In this case "startup". The dumb money will be lost, the "startup founders" will slink away (for the most part) into nondescript corporate jobs, and saying you are doing a "startup" will become a bad thing. Well at least that was what happened here in the Bay Area during the 90's.
tylermauthe 14y ago
As college student who grew up watching Zuck "get rich easy", I was easily taken in by the Hipster startup culture. Very unfortunately for me, I only found out about this fantastic site (Hacker News) about 5 months ago. By this time, the hipster ethos was rampant and I was swept up by it. My ego deeply resonated with their fancy promises and extravagant buzz words. However, there is a thread of hope. An undercurrent of truth which I have recently started to uncover within the layers of crud. I just read Paul Graham's essay Beating the Averages last night and realized that I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about. Lately there has been a growing thread of dissatisfaction with Hacker News. It feels as though the original community has become diluted by an influx of folks like myself, eager to make their mark but too naïve to really do anything constructive (and too naïve to realize we’re naïve). But we are learning. So, Hacker News, thanks for putting up with us noobs! I realize now that I won’t be the next Zuck, but if I keep listening and learning from HN, I just might make a dent in the universe.

nihonjon 14y ago

Anyone else tired of all these entrepreneur/startup blogs and articles? It's a bubble in itself. Now I skip past them like I skip tabloid and gossip "articles".

mindcrime 14y ago
You have to understand, before it was called "Hacker News", this was "Startup News". A heavy focus on startup culture and entrepreneurship is a part of the DNA of this site. I expect it will always be that way. Complaining about startup / entrepreneur articles here is almost akin to getting in the water and then complaining that you got wet.
- alberich 14y ago
  Funny that a lot of articles here wouldn't really be categorized as "hacker" news :) Lately, everything is "hacking". Seems like the word lost its meaning.
  - gioele 14y ago
    And nice, playful hacks get discarded as "Totally unusable." because they do not work on latest iOS. [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4442829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4442829
  - nirvana 14y ago
    When I've pointed it out, people have told me that political diatribes are appropriate here because "x is relevant to hackers and this is for anything hackers find relevant".
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    It's been like that forever - "hack" has become a buzzwordy synonym for "clever trick". Found a cool way to get the word out on your product? You've "hacked marketing". Have an increment improvement on an existing concept? You've "hacked" that vertical. Interesting new job posting system? "Hacked recruitment". I'm pretty sick of this community/field forcibly inventing words for every old thing instead of just calling it like it is - and this includes all of the "growth hacker" crap over the last few days. We're doing the same shit everyone else has been doing for hundreds of years, except we've changed the context to involve technology. These buzzwordy exclusive words we use do not actually describe fundamentally different concepts, they're just opportunities to fall all over ourselves and fawn at ourselves in the mirror.

001sky 14y ago

In between all that succeeding and failing were a large number of businesses who didn’t really know what they were doing yet or how they would do that thing profitably. So, weren’t really businesses in the traditional sense and we needed a new word with which to call them. cheap to scale > scale per se > scale potential

yesimahuman 14y ago

I just blogged about something similar today called the Failure Fallacy (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4444523 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4444523). We are making it hard on ourselves to be successful because of the ideas and types of businesses we are drawn to create. We jump into crazy ideas with no provable business model or customer when we could experiment and apply customer validation to our potential product. Jumping in like a crazy person is glorified in our community because we love watching others do wild things and hope it will help us be more wild. I want this to change. More people should be running successful businesses, though they might not be instagrams. I want to see your unique touch on so many tired products and ideas.

josscrowcroft 14y ago

Fantastic writing style in this post - it somehow jumps out of the page, not sure how to describe it. Congrats. Only time I ever felt like giving up on my latest venture[1] was when I started trying to view it as a "startup" and thereby compared it to other "startups". I got really depressed for a week or so trying to be a "startup guy", which thankfully I didn't become. It was like the goals of the business (provide a killer service in order to fund my continuing education and frugal lifestyle) got replaced by the "be the coolest thing ever" startup vibe, which sucked. This article reminds me again that it's not a startup... it's a site that makes a little money by solving a common problem for developers like me, better than other people, and will hopefully make a little more money, once I've done some good marketing and solved that problem even better! [1] https://openexchangerates.org https://openexchangerates.org

greenyoda 14y ago
I looked at openexchangerates.org and it looks like a very useful service (real time exchange rates via a JSON API) that people would actually pay for. But there already seem to be other businesses competing in this space. I'm curious as to what advantages you provide compared to sites like xurrency.com or exchangerate-api.com.
- josscrowcroft 14y ago
  Thanks, and good question - it's a very old industry in the web, so the main benefit is ease of implementation (and about to get even easier), highly responsive support, great community and remarkably low prices :o) - that said, I'd love to hear any thoughts you have on other advantages that could be provided - hit me up on twitter @josscrowcroft if you have any ideas.
skyhook_mockups 14y ago
ahhh please don't give up on openexchangerates.org, it's an awesome service which I'd be happy to pay for.
- josscrowcroft 14y ago

nirvana 14y ago

The silicon valley Startup Kool-aid has a false dichotomy: You're either patio11[1], a "nobody" building a "lifestyle business" or you're making the next Instagram. Consequently we have a cargo cult mentality that has evolved. Lets compare these two: Location: "Obviously you need to be in Silicon Valley. This is where all the wannabe startup hipsters move to!" I mean, you can't go to a coffeeshop without hearing a harvard MBA who think's he's a programmer because he made an excel macro work once, talking about how he's going to disrupt multiple paradigms with his massive SoLoMo app they're building. "This is where it's all happening, man!"[5] "Japan? There's no startup scene in Japan. Hell, that's a 12 hour flight. You think VCs are going to fly 12 hours for a board meeting?" Business model: "Dude, if you charge money, like %90 of the people aren't going to use your product! But if you're free, and you've gamified your appointment calendar, people will share it! If you can get your virality factor to 2, you'll have a billion customers in 5 months!" "Oh, there will be a way to make money later, somehow, just look at google, twitter and Facebook!" [2] Funding: "If you're going to be scalable, you need bank, man! The VCS are in silicon valley, the VCs are critical to having a business. They'll give you great advice, connect you up with the other movers and shakers so you can have Cock-Tails Man!" (Yeah, I can't make myself sound like a startup hipster, I know.) "Without money, how are you going to build anything? How could you ever scale it? You have to start with money!" Company culture: "IF you see the CEO writing code, you've failed. You gotta delegate. I mean, never invest in a company run by a programmer, they'll spend all their time delighting in some technical solution that's super elegant but nobody at any cocktail party is going to give a damn about! I mean, what do customers care about how good you did something? They company has to be run by a people person-- so at the cocktail parties he[3] can network with other people! People's what drives business, and this is what gets business done!" Do they even have cocktail parties in Japan? Isn't liqueur outlawed or something there?[4] Advice: "You see with VCs, its not the money that's valuable, its the advice! They're going to be able to tell you the right moves and you'll be able to grow so much faster!" I can't contrast this with patio, because I don't know where he gets advice. But in my experience, VCs [can be] beyond clueless[6]. I've seen them force companies to shut down profitable businesses and focus on long shots (which had the nice side effect of making the company more desperate for the investment, and by drawing it all out the VC was able to get much better terms and take the whole thing when the company later sold, shutting out the founders and employees who got nothing.) I've seen VCs force product direction based on fads, and force the use of inappropriate technologies (provided by a company they had a relationship with, naturally) which caused product delay and ultimately a significant reduction in the value of the company on exit. Much of the investment process seems to be spending time getting investors up to speed so that they even understand what it is you're doing-- which maybe is one of the reasons they'd rather fund instagram than patio11. I mean, they don't know anything about the hair salon industry (his only clients as far as they can tell) but everyone likes to take instamatic pictures! And if you don't have a business model, you don't have to worry about the business model! [1] All respect to patio11. I think he's on the right track here, and he seemed to be the best example to use. Nothing derogatory said here about him or his business is meant that way, merely to characterize the people who would see him in a derogatory light. [2] Here's a bonus: Why is google's monetezation strategy significantly better than twitter an facebooks? It might turn out not to be if the latter two find a way to make it work, but right now, it works much better. [3] Always. No such thing as a She CEO, I mean, women just don't have the ruthlessness needed, amirite? [4] I don't think people are this naive about Japan in particular, but I hear them say the strangest stuff. [5] Somehow startup hipsters in the bay area speak with a style that's a cross between "Brah" and San Fran hippy from the 1970s. In my head. [6] This is why YC has had so much success, in part, as PG is not clueless and his vetting and blessing lets VCs outsource dealflow. I think angels are probably a lot less clueless, though I have less experience with them. Looking at Gabriel Weinbergs recent summary of his angel experience you see a very different approach than the mentality I'm laying out here.

protolif 14y ago

modal adverts make baby jesus cry.

aggge3 14y ago

Most of these "entrepreneurs" are just product/service designers. The problem is, the world of startups is starting to look like the counter at 7-11. We need real ideas, physical technology, not just some worthless app.

npguy 14y ago

Here is the real issue: finding problems. Here is why: Anyone who tracks startups knows these two conflicting facts: 1. Ideas are not everything – execution is key 2. It is extremely important to solve a problem that people would find value in, and therefore pay for. Summary: It is of course important to execute well and solve the problem, but the starting point is to know if the problem is worth getting solved. Now look at our education system through this new prism the flaw comes out very, very clearly the system today teaches problem solving, applying theory to practice etc but there is little to no emphasis on identifying problems. Think about your own school / college days for a second in how many instances were you given a situation, and were asked to identify problems to solve? The problem to be solved was always STATED nobody ever asked us to come up with a set of difficult problems to solve. Over time, this lack of practice in identifying problems translates into difficulties in spotting profitable opportunities. Even if we do, there is a lack of conviction and we end up pivoting multiple times. Our education system cultivates employees, not employers – to be one, you need to be trained not to solve a problem, but to identify one. For some reason HN would not allow me to submit the link for the above, it kept killing the post and any related query. Am trying to be reborn as a new guy on HN now.