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> As an Australian citizen, I can't "fix" US politics. I can't and I wouldn't want to try That's great, but I didn't ask you to, and I am pretty confused where

> As an Australian citizen, I can't "fix" US politics. I can't and I wouldn't want to try That's great, but I didn't ask you to, and I am pretty confused where you got this notion that I was. > if your president says he wants to largely ignore the rest of the world and do whats best today for americans, it weakens your moral standing when you lecture others about doing the same. It absolutely does not weaken my moral standing. I did not vote for the traitors currently making a farce of my country. That has absolutely zero to do with what I've mentioned here. I'm really not sure the purpose of your comments or what value you're attempting to add to this thread.

josephg 1y ago
Fair point. I'm projecting a bit much, because I'm kinda pissed off about how much americans assume everything everywhere is about america and should be judged by american values. I agree that its not weird or creepy to follow whats going on in other countries. But you hit a nerve when you said this upthread: "Australia is such a draconian nanny state, hell-bent on surveillance and authoritarian control" because we require ID to get a phone number. It would be cheap to shoot back with criticisms of the US. But that would be pointless. So, I think its a more interesting conversation to talk about where the wall should be here. How do we talk here, between our countries? > It absolutely does not weaken my moral standing. I did not vote for the traitors currently making a farce of my country. I don't agree. I don't think your voting habits in particular give you enough distance to absolve you entirely for anything your leader does internationally. I see it as an API boundary question. Imagine if your company ships a buggy product. From inside the organisation, it's legitimate to say "The bug is not my fault!". But from the outside, nobody cares. The whole organisation is collectively responsible for their successes and failures. The reputation of the whole organisation is elevated when they put out good products. And that brand reputation suffers when they put out bad products. I don't care which engineer in particular implemented a bug on my iphone. I care that my iphone is buggy. And the inverse - my airpods are amazing, and that makes me want to buy more apple products. Its the same with countries. You and I both live in representative democracies. We're represented by whoever wins our elections. Even if you didn't vote for Trump, collectively your country voted for Trump. Like him or not, as a nation, you've collectively decided to make him your leader & representative. He represents you on the world stage. In some sense, thats what a nation is: its a collection of people who tie their fate together. Who rally around a collective vision for the future. Its the same for me. I would like it very much if our country stopped ruining our coral reefs. I didn't vote for those policies (and I personally pushed back against a lot of Australia's surveillance laws). But internationally I still have to wear some shame for what my country is doing.

josephg 1y ago

Fair point. I'm projecting a bit much, because I'm kinda pissed off about how much americans assume everything everywhere is about america and should be judged by american values. I agree that its not weird or creepy to follow whats going on in other countries. But you hit a nerve when you said this upthread: "Australia is such a draconian nanny state, hell-bent on surveillance and authoritarian control" because we require ID to get a phone number. It would be cheap to shoot back with criticisms of the US. But that would be pointless. So, I think its a more interesting conversation to talk about where the wall should be here. How do we talk here, between our countries? > It absolutely does not weaken my moral standing. I did not vote for the traitors currently making a farce of my country. I don't agree. I don't think your voting habits in particular give you enough distance to absolve you entirely for anything your leader does internationally. I see it as an API boundary question. Imagine if your company ships a buggy product. From inside the organisation, it's legitimate to say "The bug is not my fault!". But from the outside, nobody cares. The whole organisation is collectively responsible for their successes and failures. The reputation of the whole organisation is elevated when they put out good products. And that brand reputation suffers when they put out bad products. I don't care which engineer in particular implemented a bug on my iphone. I care that my iphone is buggy. And the inverse - my airpods are amazing, and that makes me want to buy more apple products. Its the same with countries. You and I both live in representative democracies. We're represented by whoever wins our elections. Even if you didn't vote for Trump, collectively your country voted for Trump. Like him or not, as a nation, you've collectively decided to make him your leader & representative. He represents you on the world stage. In some sense, thats what a nation is: its a collection of people who tie their fate together. Who rally around a collective vision for the future. Its the same for me. I would like it very much if our country stopped ruining our coral reefs. I didn't vote for those policies (and I personally pushed back against a lot of Australia's surveillance laws). But internationally I still have to wear some shame for what my country is doing.