3 ms·

It's pretty disappointing to me that people would downvote you for saying what seemed so obvious. Conservatism in America is always associated with a decision

It's pretty disappointing to me that people would downvote you for saying what seemed so obvious. Conservatism in America is always associated with a decision making process dictated by religion. He attacks creationism with evolution and the Christianity's disapproval of euthanasia and abortion. These generalizations are neutral since the right will stand by these fallacies. Where the bias comes to play is when he says "affirmative action is racist" and "taxation is theft". This is not what conservatives believe but instead either skewed to easily argue a liberal point of view or just a lack of understanding of what the right thinks. Most of the right don't support affirmative action not because it creates a disproportionate amount of minorities but because it creates a disproportionate amount of smart people. For every average minority that gets into an above average school, an above average non-minority must now go to an average school. This aligns with the liberal ideal that "Since life isn't fair, we must intervene to make it so". When Republicans get elected to office they don't try and put legislation into place that does away with all taxation. Simplified: the left supports a higher less equal taxation and the right supports a lower more equal taxation. When the right is lowering taxes that's only because they are balancing out programs implemented by the left that don't align with their economic policy. It's a tired argument. The left finger points that wealthy Republicans are selfish for not being willing to support people that are poor. The right says "It creates a net negative because it results in a lack of economic incentives for individuals. Feel free to support them yourself if you're so selfless". The left reply "No, were only going to help if you do".

jbooth 14y ago
..."affirmative action is racist" and "taxation is theft". This is not what conservatives believe... You must not get much chain email. Not to disagree that some examples of lefty dumbness would have improved the article. Plenty of dumb in the world to go around. But I've seen those exact points argued by conservatives on Hacker News, let alone the fox news discussion forums.
- brandoncapecci 14y ago
  Well, Gmail has a good learning algorithm :) I definitely agree with you that these points are argued but I don't believe, or perhaps hope, that they represent the majority of conservatives. I think it's considered fact that right media is significantly more sensationalist. Naturally, this turns "I humbly disagree" points of view into "You should hate because" arguments. In the same sense that they don't report on the moderate right, they also don't report on the moderate left. It could just as easily be said that I heard "in a liberal America, everyone will drive a Prius" in a chain email. Of course you wouldn't hesitate in believing that is false. It's not that Fox News doesn't actually report the news (despite a perpetual joke deeming otherwise) it's just that it skews points to make them more approachable for socially conservative voter. They must say that "abortion is murder" to their party because it consists of people vehemently against murder and more importantly, people against redefining their definition of murder. Conservatism itself is defined by this a lack of progressivism and without it, most of the social stances are blurred if not completely flip flopped. As you know, most voters aren't that informed. Nearly nobody, left or right, ponders real solutions to the problems facing the government. Instead they have a belief, usually predetermined, and look for information to support that belief. Arguments are reenactments of actual debates with more swearing mixed with regurgitation of often incorrect statistics. The left and right is saturated with bigots. A fractional amount of voters even consider both candidates. To the left, Obama can do no wrong. To the right, if he says run, they walk - if he says walk, they run. In my experience, the only people who are informed enough to vote are those who consider voting bi-partisan, and who classify themselves as independent, libertarian, etc. This all goes back to why you see these points blanketed over all conservatives which I think is because these moderates don't want to associate themselves with the extremist nature of the right media. A moderate, even someone who considers themselves mostly Republican, cannot possibly seem partial when he is next to someone using religion as political justification and partial people don't like appearing impartial. Just know that just because someone votes Republican, doesn't mean they have tunnel vision and belong the Westboro Baptist Church any more than a voter of Democrat is expected to be on the newest season of Whale Wars.
  - jbooth 14y ago
    I think you're suffering from a bit of david broderism. "I want to look reasonable, so I'll say both sides do it". Fox News viewers are the least informed viewers in every survey ever conducted. They thought that Saddam had been caught with WMDs in like 2007. Almost a majority thinks Obama wasn't born in America. These are scientific surveys, and it's completely different from a liberal being biased to explain away facts that they acknowledge. If Fox News is saying something, and people are repeating it, I think we're doing them a disservice by saying they don't really believe it.
fusiongyro 14y ago
> Conservatism in America is always associated with a decision making process dictated by religion. That seems to be the case today, but I don't think it was always that way. The original idea of conservatism as I understand it is basically to avoid seeing everything as an emergency and to avoid seeing every emergency as the exclusive domain of the state. Conservatism is about moving slowly (conservatively) to avoid making unnecessary changes that turn out to be mistakes. In short, to defuse alarmism with calm, reasoned debate. In fact, today, arguing that we should tear down vast amounts of the government simply because they were erected by liberals is also a dramatic change that an old-fashioned conservative would have some trouble agreeing to. It's pretty sad that both political parties in this country are mostly defined by not being the other one. I would appreciate having a conservative party of this stripe to choose. I think the closest thing we have is the Modern Whig party, which is tellingly considered centrist. Edit: I'm having trouble imagining how the above could merit downvotes without replies.
- brandoncapecci 14y ago
  I don't know the history of the word conservatism but I do know there was a time when Republicans were more progressive than Democrats. Eventually they switched. I agree that having a more popular moderate party would be nice, granted, I feel like many people who are forced to vote Republican or Democrat are just Libertarians (which seem to express the views of most moderates) and must decide between the lesser of two evils. Of course, that's due more due to the stranglehold of the two-party system on elections rather than people thinking outside of those parties.

jbooth 14y ago

..."affirmative action is racist" and "taxation is theft". This is not what conservatives believe... You must not get much chain email. Not to disagree that some examples of lefty dumbness would have improved the article. Plenty of dumb in the world to go around. But I've seen those exact points argued by conservatives on Hacker News, let alone the fox news discussion forums.

brandoncapecci 14y ago
Well, Gmail has a good learning algorithm :) I definitely agree with you that these points are argued but I don't believe, or perhaps hope, that they represent the majority of conservatives. I think it's considered fact that right media is significantly more sensationalist. Naturally, this turns "I humbly disagree" points of view into "You should hate because" arguments. In the same sense that they don't report on the moderate right, they also don't report on the moderate left. It could just as easily be said that I heard "in a liberal America, everyone will drive a Prius" in a chain email. Of course you wouldn't hesitate in believing that is false. It's not that Fox News doesn't actually report the news (despite a perpetual joke deeming otherwise) it's just that it skews points to make them more approachable for socially conservative voter. They must say that "abortion is murder" to their party because it consists of people vehemently against murder and more importantly, people against redefining their definition of murder. Conservatism itself is defined by this a lack of progressivism and without it, most of the social stances are blurred if not completely flip flopped. As you know, most voters aren't that informed. Nearly nobody, left or right, ponders real solutions to the problems facing the government. Instead they have a belief, usually predetermined, and look for information to support that belief. Arguments are reenactments of actual debates with more swearing mixed with regurgitation of often incorrect statistics. The left and right is saturated with bigots. A fractional amount of voters even consider both candidates. To the left, Obama can do no wrong. To the right, if he says run, they walk - if he says walk, they run. In my experience, the only people who are informed enough to vote are those who consider voting bi-partisan, and who classify themselves as independent, libertarian, etc. This all goes back to why you see these points blanketed over all conservatives which I think is because these moderates don't want to associate themselves with the extremist nature of the right media. A moderate, even someone who considers themselves mostly Republican, cannot possibly seem partial when he is next to someone using religion as political justification and partial people don't like appearing impartial. Just know that just because someone votes Republican, doesn't mean they have tunnel vision and belong the Westboro Baptist Church any more than a voter of Democrat is expected to be on the newest season of Whale Wars.
- jbooth 14y ago
  I think you're suffering from a bit of david broderism. "I want to look reasonable, so I'll say both sides do it". Fox News viewers are the least informed viewers in every survey ever conducted. They thought that Saddam had been caught with WMDs in like 2007. Almost a majority thinks Obama wasn't born in America. These are scientific surveys, and it's completely different from a liberal being biased to explain away facts that they acknowledge. If Fox News is saying something, and people are repeating it, I think we're doing them a disservice by saying they don't really believe it.

fusiongyro 14y ago

> Conservatism in America is always associated with a decision making process dictated by religion. That seems to be the case today, but I don't think it was always that way. The original idea of conservatism as I understand it is basically to avoid seeing everything as an emergency and to avoid seeing every emergency as the exclusive domain of the state. Conservatism is about moving slowly (conservatively) to avoid making unnecessary changes that turn out to be mistakes. In short, to defuse alarmism with calm, reasoned debate. In fact, today, arguing that we should tear down vast amounts of the government simply because they were erected by liberals is also a dramatic change that an old-fashioned conservative would have some trouble agreeing to. It's pretty sad that both political parties in this country are mostly defined by not being the other one. I would appreciate having a conservative party of this stripe to choose. I think the closest thing we have is the Modern Whig party, which is tellingly considered centrist. Edit: I'm having trouble imagining how the above could merit downvotes without replies.

brandoncapecci 14y ago
I don't know the history of the word conservatism but I do know there was a time when Republicans were more progressive than Democrats. Eventually they switched. I agree that having a more popular moderate party would be nice, granted, I feel like many people who are forced to vote Republican or Democrat are just Libertarians (which seem to express the views of most moderates) and must decide between the lesser of two evils. Of course, that's due more due to the stranglehold of the two-party system on elections rather than people thinking outside of those parties.