4 ms·

crypto seems like a massive waste for what can just be a regular transaction

by hhh 1y ago

trollbridge 1y ago
Something like BAT isn't that wasteful, and without crypto you'd be stuck never getting paid by bad actors in the scheme.
- gessha 1y ago
  But why exactly does it have to be on an append-only ledger where transactions are processed/validated for a fee? Why can’t it be a more conventional transaction processor like VISA on top of the banking system?
  - baobun 1y ago
    Bitcoin Lightning Network works and roughly maps to that.
  - dboreham 1y ago
    Because Visa doesn't (hasn't) wanted to do microtransactions, ever, since the beginning of the internet.
    - tzs 1y ago
      You still don't need cryptocurrencies. You just need a middleman that aggregates micropayments into large enough amounts to work with non-micropayment systems. Some might object to having to get middlemen involved, but the thing is that even with cryptocurrency payments you are going to need middlemen because the web is international. If your website is directly charging crawlers to crawl and you get crawled and paid by any crawler from another country, congratulations! You are now engaged directly in international trade and have a whole slew of regulations to deal with, probably from both your country and the country the crawler is from. If you go through a middleman you can structure things so it is the middleman that is buying crawler access from you. Pick a middleman in your country (or anywhere in the EU of you are in the EU) and most of your regulatory headaches go away.
      - imiric 1y ago
        A middleman is not strictly required for cryptocurrencies. Regulations around them and how international transactions are taxed will depend on each country, just like anything else. These matters can be handled by lawyers and accountants as usual. While I agree that cryptocurrencies are not strictly required for this, the infrastructure already exists to support micropayments, and is well understood and trusted. What infrastructure could support the same use cases for fiat micropayments? Would it be as low friction to setup and use as cryptocurrencies are today? Would it be decentralized and not depend on a single company? I'm as tired as anyone else about the cryptocurrency hype and the charlatans and scammers it has enabled. But I also think it's silly to completely ignore the technology and refuse to acknowledge that it has genuine use cases that no other system is well suited for. Micropayments and powering novel business models on the web is one clear example of that.
        tzs 1y ago
        > Regulations around them and how international transactions are taxed will depend on each country, just like anything else. These matters can be handled by lawyers and accountants as usual. One of my points is that quite a lot of sites don't currently do any international transactions with site visitors. They make their money selling ad space. Their transactions are with a small number of ad networks, probably in the same country. The site's lawyers and accountants are most likely just trained in dealing with in-country transactions. If the site start directly charging international crawlers it is then adding international transactions and will need accountants and lawyers who can deal with that. Big sites with a lot of revenue can probably handle this fine. Smaller sites are much less likely to be able to deal with it. There is also political risk handling it yourself because some counties are viewing AI development similarly to how they view weapon development, and I would not be surprised to find that some countries will view selling AI crawling access to certain other countries as violating sanctions. Thus for most sites that aren't already engaged in international commerce they are probably going to want to go through a middleman to sell crawler access even if cryptocurrencies are used for the payment system.
      - PinkSheep 1y ago
        "I" pick a middleman like VISA and my regulatory headaches begin with THEIR policies on top of regulatory headaches.
  - __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
    Because conventional transaction processors can be compelled to shut off payments to publishers whose content offends the powerful. Just look at what happened to wikileaks.
    - troyvit 1y ago
      Seriously. Conventional transaction processors are the problem, not the solution. They can pick favorites and shut off payments for non-favorites, change their TOS, hit you with surprise transaction fees, randomly suspend your account, insert middlemen, etc. etc.
    - onesociety2022 1y ago
      Crypto is not going to save you there. If some country like India wants to ban content from some publishers, they can do so by just asking their ISPs to ban all traffic to said publishers. Whether the publisher accepts micropayments on crypto rails or conventional rails is immaterial. They are not going to be able to distribute their content anymore and hence not get paid either.
bo1024 1y ago
Much cheaper than using a credit card processor.
- rswail 1y ago
  Not cheaper than using one of the instant net settlement services like FedNow (UPI in India, PromptPay in Thailand, PayID in Australia)
  - jdminhbg 1y ago
    Do you see what the issue might be with the parenthetical there?
    - rswail 1y ago
      Of course, but are you aware that there are already cross-country agreements that allow these systems to work, for example, UPI is accepted in Singapore? https://support.google.com/pay/india/answer/13949170?hl=en https://support.google.com/pay/india/answer/13949170?hl=en There are also alternatives like WePay, AliPay, LINE Pay and other wallet providers that are generally accepted across Asia. The use of the Visa and MC networks is primarily a US/EU/APAC environment, where the alliance of bank issuers has controlled that market for decades. This is essentially a "legacy" network, with a lot of issues related to the interchange and other fees, as well as any number of 3rd parties, hidden from the consumer, that "clip the ticket" of each transaction.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]

crypto seems like a massive waste for what can just be a regular transaction

by hhh 1y ago

crypto seems like a massive waste for what can just be a regular transaction

Something like BAT isn't that wasteful, and without crypto you'd be stuck never getting paid by bad actors in the scheme.

gessha 1y ago
But why exactly does it have to be on an append-only ledger where transactions are processed/validated for a fee? Why can’t it be a more conventional transaction processor like VISA on top of the banking system?
- baobun 1y ago
  Bitcoin Lightning Network works and roughly maps to that.
- dboreham 1y ago
  Because Visa doesn't (hasn't) wanted to do microtransactions, ever, since the beginning of the internet.
  - tzs 1y ago
    You still don't need cryptocurrencies. You just need a middleman that aggregates micropayments into large enough amounts to work with non-micropayment systems. Some might object to having to get middlemen involved, but the thing is that even with cryptocurrency payments you are going to need middlemen because the web is international. If your website is directly charging crawlers to crawl and you get crawled and paid by any crawler from another country, congratulations! You are now engaged directly in international trade and have a whole slew of regulations to deal with, probably from both your country and the country the crawler is from. If you go through a middleman you can structure things so it is the middleman that is buying crawler access from you. Pick a middleman in your country (or anywhere in the EU of you are in the EU) and most of your regulatory headaches go away.
    - imiric 1y ago
      A middleman is not strictly required for cryptocurrencies. Regulations around them and how international transactions are taxed will depend on each country, just like anything else. These matters can be handled by lawyers and accountants as usual. While I agree that cryptocurrencies are not strictly required for this, the infrastructure already exists to support micropayments, and is well understood and trusted. What infrastructure could support the same use cases for fiat micropayments? Would it be as low friction to setup and use as cryptocurrencies are today? Would it be decentralized and not depend on a single company? I'm as tired as anyone else about the cryptocurrency hype and the charlatans and scammers it has enabled. But I also think it's silly to completely ignore the technology and refuse to acknowledge that it has genuine use cases that no other system is well suited for. Micropayments and powering novel business models on the web is one clear example of that.
      - tzs 1y ago
        > Regulations around them and how international transactions are taxed will depend on each country, just like anything else. These matters can be handled by lawyers and accountants as usual. One of my points is that quite a lot of sites don't currently do any international transactions with site visitors. They make their money selling ad space. Their transactions are with a small number of ad networks, probably in the same country. The site's lawyers and accountants are most likely just trained in dealing with in-country transactions. If the site start directly charging international crawlers it is then adding international transactions and will need accountants and lawyers who can deal with that. Big sites with a lot of revenue can probably handle this fine. Smaller sites are much less likely to be able to deal with it. There is also political risk handling it yourself because some counties are viewing AI development similarly to how they view weapon development, and I would not be surprised to find that some countries will view selling AI crawling access to certain other countries as violating sanctions. Thus for most sites that aren't already engaged in international commerce they are probably going to want to go through a middleman to sell crawler access even if cryptocurrencies are used for the payment system.
    - PinkSheep 1y ago
      "I" pick a middleman like VISA and my regulatory headaches begin with THEIR policies on top of regulatory headaches.
- __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
  Because conventional transaction processors can be compelled to shut off payments to publishers whose content offends the powerful. Just look at what happened to wikileaks.
  - troyvit 1y ago
    Seriously. Conventional transaction processors are the problem, not the solution. They can pick favorites and shut off payments for non-favorites, change their TOS, hit you with surprise transaction fees, randomly suspend your account, insert middlemen, etc. etc.
  - onesociety2022 1y ago
    Crypto is not going to save you there. If some country like India wants to ban content from some publishers, they can do so by just asking their ISPs to ban all traffic to said publishers. Whether the publisher accepts micropayments on crypto rails or conventional rails is immaterial. They are not going to be able to distribute their content anymore and hence not get paid either.

bo1024 1y ago

Much cheaper than using a credit card processor.

rswail 1y ago
Not cheaper than using one of the instant net settlement services like FedNow (UPI in India, PromptPay in Thailand, PayID in Australia)
- jdminhbg 1y ago
  Do you see what the issue might be with the parenthetical there?
  - rswail 1y ago
    Of course, but are you aware that there are already cross-country agreements that allow these systems to work, for example, UPI is accepted in Singapore? https://support.google.com/pay/india/answer/13949170?hl=en https://support.google.com/pay/india/answer/13949170?hl=en There are also alternatives like WePay, AliPay, LINE Pay and other wallet providers that are generally accepted across Asia. The use of the Visa and MC networks is primarily a US/EU/APAC environment, where the alliance of bank issuers has controlled that market for decades. This is essentially a "legacy" network, with a lot of issues related to the interchange and other fees, as well as any number of 3rd parties, hidden from the consumer, that "clip the ticket" of each transaction.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]