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Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

93 points by kshatrea 14y ago

sudmah 14y ago
IF I WANT TO GO US, I HAVE TO GIVE MY BLOOD, MY DNA. THIS IS DUE TO RISK FROM TERROIST. HAS THIS SYSTEM EVER STOPPED A TERROIST ATTACK. AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE WHERE IF YOU DOWNLOAD AND SHARE A FEW SONGS, YOU WILL HAVE TO SELL YOUR HOUSE TO PAY THE OUTRAGEOUS FINES. ALL IN THE NAME IF THE RIAA.
- nrbafna 14y ago
  This is a wrong way to reason about it. The article appears in an Indian paper, why single out U.S. as the country to compare to? Also, just because other countries have other restrictions (wrong or otherwise), that doesn't justify such restrictions in India. P.S. Avoid typing in all caps. It comes off as rude.
  - sudmah 14y ago
    I'm actually quite fed up with people portraying India negatively. Oprah Winfrey has done this and I am surprised at how this seems to be the consensus with the media. Yes India has some issues with policy and infrastructure, however they are trying to sort this problem out. Have you heard of the 4g network that's a work in progress? If you actually read the article you would know that non Indian wrote it. "It’s a police state here in Delhi. Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort, and then they copy my passport." Now hold on since when was India, Delhi. Do you even know what a police state is? "Some want only a government-issued ID. Some insist upon an ID with a photograph. And there are some who have a fascination for your passport or driving licence – nothing else will do. I mean, just to check a mail, which will take 5 minutes, you have to fill in a form (particulars in a register) and submit a copy of a “proper” ID" I live in the UK. I'm 27 years old and when I go to the buy cigarettes. I am asked for Id, only photo id will do. I have no driving licence so am forced to use my passport. Same thing happens when I buy alcohol and at bars clubs. Having to give my id to an arrogant bouncer who can blatantly tell I'm over 18 is greatly annoying. Every internet café I have ever been to in the U.K has CCTV. the owners of the internet café also has to keep a record of all sites visited. Maybe India should take this big brother approach.
    - kshatrea 14y ago
      > If you actually read the article you would know that non Indian wrote it. Dead wrong. Jawed Anwar wrote it, a ToI columnist. He just quoted Soghoian's tweet and used that as linkbait. I posted this article on HN, without the question mark as heading, because this is one headline where Betteridge's law would not apply.
      - sudmah 14y ago
        im referring to Soghoian
        prakashk 14y ago
        You'd still be wrong. Soghoian's "contribution" to the article is just his tweet cited by the actual author and nothing more.
    - RobAley 14y ago
      > the owners of the internet café also has to keep a record of all sites visited Sorry, but that is just not true.
      - sudmah 14y ago
        Ok maybe not all site but they are encourage to snoop http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/uk-police-asks-internet-cafes-to-monitor-customers-1928322.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/new... bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18434112
        RobAley 14y ago
        Virtually no cafe's (by which I mean I know of none and have heard of none) do what the Police are asking in your first link. It is completely optional, and indeed may break other laws such as the Data Protection Act if not done properly and with notice to the user. With regards to the second link, that law is a fair way off and already faces quite stiff opposition. Similar but less intrusive laws already in place which require ISPs to retain certain logs if requested have not yet proved too onerous (and have not been abused on a large scale), and certainly don't interfere directly with most peoples use of the net, at home or in public spaces like internet cafes. This isn't to say that I support the existing laws, I don't, but they are in no way of the same type, scale or intrusiveness as the situation described in the article.
- sifar 14y ago
  First of all this was not about the US but India. 1) courier companies opening your packages - check 2) problem furnishing address proof if working in a different city - check Having experienced most of these things, I totally agree with the article. The whole premise of stricter laws equals better security is false. These just enable the police to harass the people more. Yes US has its share of idiotic/draconian(or whatever) laws in the name of security. It doesn't mean India should have the same moronic laws. The difference is that privacy is taken pretty seriously in the US while in India people by and large have no sense of respect towards an individual's privacy. BTW, no need to shout (if your caps lock was not enabled by mistake).
sigkill 14y ago
RE: Cybercafe - To be fair, they do this because they don't have the infrastructure or the technology to track you and all your data. RE: Bank accounts - Yeah, I've heard this happen from my friends. But they say that it's quite much easier to open accounts in private banks as compared to the "State Banks". But even they require some sort of person to vouch for you.
- sifar 14y ago
  They should not track my data. Period. Yes, so one has to use other means to remain anonymous.
huntesh 14y ago
we are turning into communist nut-jobs. Thanks to the gandhi family and congress. gandhi family were lead in forming the congress party which was formed under british rule to support british indra gandhi declared an emergency and edited the constituent of india(made us socialist) *gandhi brought u features like no more than 20 SMS per mobile no more cars below 16 liter/KM average 10^32 scams a shitty budget that gives average family 1000Rs off on income tax while increasing taxes on corporations by a factor of 2 free mobile phones for poor(lol) the biggest mid day meal till date(billions Rs spend) ....I can go on all day It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time. Wishing BJP(ie Modi) to take over...
- sdqali 14y ago
  "It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time." Citation, please!
- intended 14y ago
  Wow, several new profiles of 3 hours or less on HN, and ALL have terrible posts. I think HN got linked somewhere. For people unaware - Bashing the Gandhi family and Congress is a common past time, but beyond that it gets split across people 2 factions which are rife with, if not build directly out of, hate/venom/ideologies. Its sort of the Republicans vs Democrats, with less long term ideals and more unalloyed hate. Ask either side for data or logic and they usually can't get too far. If they do, they have their own skewed interpretations of what happened. Both sides are bad, one is more vocal.
- kamaal 14y ago
  Don't know what you wish to say here. I am a native Bangalorean. And from what I know of history our state. Close 99.99% of IT growth work you see today was the work of Deve Gowda(JD-S) and SM Krishna(Congress). On top of that biggest projects were conceived under Congress- IT Park constructions, Bangalore Metro etc. Not a single thing has happened under BJP. The biggest scam in Karnataka's history mining scam happened and was done by BJP MLAs. Avoid venting your political opinions here. like 'intended' user mentioned rationally there is hardly a party in India which isn't corrupt.
zakshay 14y ago
My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you. Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery & pickup culture. You can get virtually anything home delivered like fresh meat, booze, and ofcourse snacks(see 2) etc. Also pickup services like laundry (one of many), are really popular. Need a new credit card, or a phone connection ? You can have a representative visit you. These kinda of services are primarily possible to India's abundance human resource (and various other factors of course). In my opinion, these are more accessible that internet based services are they rely on a phone. Its a pity that blog posts these get a lot of attention because of their extreme nature. Most of the local media tends to be sensationalistic, for grabbing eye balls I guess My daily reads of good quality Indian news are * http://www.thehindu.com/ http://www.thehindu.com/ * http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/ http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/ References: 1 Eg. http://justdial.com http://justdial.com 2 Eg. http://www.delyver.com/ http://www.delyver.com/
- sifar 14y ago
  The article is not so much about unavailability of services as it is about lack of privacy.
- sudmah 14y ago
  I agree
- quadhome 14y ago
  Are you in Bangalore?
- intended 14y ago
  And my experiences include both: It IS absurd: That in a country which is implementing a Universal Identity system for all its citizens, It wants to track: 1) Where and when you use public wifi 2) Where and when you stay at a hotel 3) Where when and what you send in parcels (all countries prevent sending illegal goods) 4) when you apply for gas 5) apply for a mobile phone and on. Words cannot express my bewilderment when otherwise intelligent people argue that this is for the benefit for our country. India's solution to solving problems is to assume that its citizens are criminals, and that more monitoring will help. And the citizens response is to accuse the government of being criminals. At the same time it doesn't detract from: 1) Great strides and innovation in mobile value added services. Forget SMSes, or calling up toll free numbers for information. You can give a missed call to some numbers and companies will call you back. That blew my mind when you consider the cost is 0. 2) Lots of human advantages as mentioned, delivery systems to your doorstep. Both co-exist. Yet explaining one doesn't detract from the other. And of the examples mentioned, the constant growth of India as a police state IS far more important than highlighting the positives of the country.
phaedrus81 14y ago
I am not sure if India is a police state yet or not. I think tourists don't have it easy as they don't understand the country as well as the natives. If you are a native you do know how to get things done. However, it is true that India is on the slippery slope where its most important democratic institutions are slowly breaking down. The first to go was the media, an example of which was the media now running paid columns as well as the attacks on journalists who threaten the status quo. The next in line is the judiciary. While the top levels of the judiciary seem to be still untainted, the lower levels seem to have been corrupted. The Election Commision was tainted a long time back as well. All this is happening and most of the middle class is unconcerned at this stage.
- intended 14y ago
  True. The recent media coverage of the recent riots and migration was distressing, marking yet another nadir in their slide downwards. I got better reports from following leads on reddit and forums than I did from looking at the media. At first I didn't give credence to what people said about the media being mouth pieces for various parties. Now I wouldn't trust them if they told me the earth was round. The judiciary is doing a better job, but are constantly having to encroach on duties supposed to be carried out by the government. Take the idea of Public Interest Litigations which were propounded by a Chief Justice. They in turn became a corner stone of the fight against corruption. Allowing people to take up injustices so that the common good can be defended. Fortunately the election commission found its teeth a while back and fought hard against to bring us fair elections. Unfortunately there were some signs of push back against the EC recently, so the next wave is underway by the looks of things. Similarly the government is headed by what should be the most progressive of leaders, the man who helped create the 1991 liberalization reforms. Yet it is constantly hamstrung by its own politics to increase its power, and at the mercy of pro communist, anti market, and anti progress swing parties. The middle class WAS concerned recently with the Anna Hazare campaigns to push for an anti corruption ombudsman. That was frightening to an extent for the government because they had a vote bank which was apathetic suddenly show signs of life. The subsequent destruction and implosion of the organizers of the anti corruption drive, have now left the middle class in a stage between waking and sleeping.
twilightfog 14y ago
Looks like the writer has a bone to pick, some of the instances he has listed are quite possibly the worst-case scenarios for every situation he has described. Here's my attempt to explain some of his "issues": > No Public Wi-Fi : Several restaurants in Delhi/NCR have free WiFi, sure you probably need to buy a coffee or something, but that's hardly an expense. You won't find a public open WiFi when walking down the road, because most WiFi networks here are private networks and the their owners have opted to secure them. > Cyber Cafes require passport - They need any ID proof. DL/PAN Card/Passport/Ration Card/Student ID (virtually anything goes) and they need a copy for their records. If you checked into any hotel in India or abroad, they do the same, I don't see him complaining about that. No Cyber cafes will insist for just DL / Passport, if they do, simply walk to the next one, they have a lot of competition. > FIR required to get a new SIM - Not any more, I got a replacement SIM without requiring to submit a FIR for my lost phone. He skipped to mention his cell phone operator. > Color Photocopies issues - If you get a color photocopy of a ID or a mark sheet, they simply stamp a small message in a corner "COLOR PHOTOCOPY, NOT ORIGINAL" or something to that effect. I find this practice perfectly reasonable. > Courier DHL / Bluedart - Some courier companies are finicky about sending certain items not because of "security" concerns, but they prefer to avoid food items or glass containers. The solution is to simply walk to the next courier service. Again, the competition is quite high in this sector, and DHL and Bluedart can get away with this behavior, however that's where smaller courier services step in. > Tenant verification - Yes, the tenants need to be verified, but it is not strictly implemented. Breaking news: Yes, the police officers can act like assholes sometimes, and talking about his colleague in a relatively isolated incident is a good way to prove his suspicions! > Bank Accounts - The "vouching" system is a decades old tradition when the banking system in India was membership based. It is no longer the case even in most public sector banks, and no private sector banks implement that. > Proof of residence - There are several alternate proof of residence which a citizen can furnish (and are widely accepted) : LPG Connection Bill, Electricity Bill, Voter ID, Passport etc. Take your pick. A legal resident in India will have atleast 1 of these, if not more. Ultimately I find the author biased and and focusing on the border-line cases in each scenario. Its ludicrous to believe that he faced these issues everyday he left his home.
dharmach 14y ago
The Worst Argument In The World (lesswrong.com) http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/
ck2 14y ago
Your police aren't given $100 Million from taxpayers to buy toys like this, including land and air drones. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-security-gear-protecting-conventions/56174/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-sec... I think US has India and virtually all other countries beat. I expect they are going to start to do random stops for IRIS scans like they do in the middle-east over here soon - you know, for all the terrorists roaming our streets and airports and buses and trains.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Huh? This article says that in India, the police have required store owners to collect ID before allowing people to use the Internet, have required hotel owners to deny rooms to people from Delhi, require police verification before you can rent an apartment, and require witness statements to open a bank account. And so you have one article suggesting that the police somewhere wasted money on an APC, and now "we have them beat"? What kind of argument is that?
  - ck2 14y ago
    You are talking about policy which can be undone with laws. Try DE-militarizing our police which respond with massive weapon-grade force to unarmed, legal, protests (or shoot a dozen innocent bystanders to get to one crazy person).
quanticle 14y ago
I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that. No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be inspected to ensure that they're keeping track of their customers. The department that manages to grab that privilege has access to more lobbying power, more bribes, and more influence. Any politician would lust after side-benefits like that. So, after any catastrophe, the answer is always more regulations and more inspections, regardless of whether those regulations and inspections would do anything to actually solve the problem.
- cdi 14y ago
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jan/08/kishwar-desai-hero-irom-chanu-sharmila http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jan/08/kishwar-desai-he... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irom_Sharmila http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irom_Sharmila
  - kamaal 14y ago
    For those who don't know the back ground context behind these links. The reason she is protesting is a law called Army Special Powers Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_%28Special_Powers%29_Act,_1958 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_%28Special_Powers%... Why the law was enforced in her region etc is a huge history and is well beyond the scope of a HN comment.
- CWuestefeld 14y ago
  India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. Even that is interesting. It shows us that bureaucracy (and, I'd say, failure to respect one's property rights) can become indistinguishable from a police state.
  - smutticus 14y ago
    I'll just leave this here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial
areddy 14y ago
We been called many names but never a police state.His cry is all about providing id. One 9/11 and the government started stripping people and entering your bed rooms.In India, the average ratio of a police to citizens is around 1:200. This is from major cities. When you go rural, the ratio will shrink further. Considering the number of terrorist attacks we have and population density, ids are the bare minimum preventive measure we have.For Indians, the accepted id can be any one of voter id, driving license, atm card with photo, ration card, passport and college id. Even my son's play school id was accepted in air port. We usually keep photo copies of one of the above. I am surprised to see crap like this got many points. What's next? something related to Jersey shore?
dr_ 14y ago
A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not checked in with the local police after returning. This was confusing to me but this said its a requirement for any foreigner leaving and returning within a 2 month period. As such, they wouldn't let me board the plane. I stayed in a hotel near the airport thru the weekend. On a Monday I went to the appropriate station, where there was a long line of foreigners in a similar predicament. When it was my turn, I was told i would need to show proof of a relative or someone I was staying with, so my uncle came and brought his passport and electric bill. Then I was told it would take some time, but he went in the back, met the director of that station and talked him up by mentioning people they knew in common and I got approved. Then there were no seats on my plane available for the rest of the week, but I had to get back to work, so I bought a new ticket and went home. I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again.
- ta12121 14y ago
  Perhaps they were trying to motivate you into bribing them.
- sudmah 14y ago
  Stay in the US and have your so called right to privacy http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...
- kamaal 14y ago
  >>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced what each of your country men experiences everyday. I don't see why anybody would give you preferential treatment- merely because you returned from the US. Besides this reminds of an incident about Gandhi, when he was asked why he wears and lives like a peasant after living in South Africa as a barrister wearing a suit, necktie, pant and shoes all the time. He replied that only way he can be one among the Indian and convince Indians that he can fight for them is to live like they live, wear what they wear and eat what they eat. To rub shoulders with ordinary Indian in their day to day lives. Every time a NRI complains about stuff like this I always wonder- legally sure you might be an Indian. But are you actually an 'Indian'?
rheide 14y ago
Great website.. As soon as I open it a javascript popup shows saying "ReferenceError: FB not defined".
- eru 14y ago
  I get: "TypeError: Object #<Object> has no method 'api'"
- fakeer 14y ago
  It's probably the most famous Indian newspaper. Specializes in bringing page 3 to page 1. Suppose one of our sports star (read cricket star) does good and there's some serious political or militnacy related event, it knows how to skip the other news. But you know what the shameful part is? People still prefer it over other newspapers. PS. Not commenting on article but the quality of newspaper :-)
manojlds 14y ago
> Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort That boils down, mostly, to poor infrastructure. It's getting better at airports. > This is a police requirement that is supposed to track terrorists. Unfortunately, we are yet to see a case where this requirement has managed to stop a terror attack in India. It is known with proofs that many threats emails were sent from internet cafes. That was the real motive. > Photocopy issues I carry color photocopied ids everywhere in India. This is about not knowing where to get what. > But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens. No free country harasses, and humiliates, its own citizens. TSA of the US comes to my mind, and that too, is just a security theatre as has been pointed out so many times here on HN!
sudmah 14y ago
OMG ITS OFFICIAL, AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE. IM SO ASHAMED OF THE U.S. WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT THIS ATROCITY COULD HAPPED. CHECK THIS OUT http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-rec.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenewsV http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-... http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...
sudmah 14y ago
IF India is a Police state then America is Big brother check this link out http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...
leeoniya 14y ago
"But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens." don't be so certain.
smutticus 14y ago
India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery. Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the disorganized mafia state. I had an easier time getting a work permit in Russia last year than India. The sheer amount of paperwork and rubber stamps required for my Indian work permit was the worst I have ever had to deal with and I've worked all over the world. All of this paperwork and stamping allows perfect opportunities for small time bureaucrats to extract bribes and favors from people who just need to get something done. So when I look at something like requiring ID to use wifi I don't see Total Information Awareness. I see Tammany Hall and a genius system that's operating exactly as it was designed, to extract graft from normal people at every possible opportunity. Disclaimer: I lived in India for 0.5 years in '99 and recently worked there again in 2011 for a month. My answers are based on these experiences and of knowing lots of Indians frustrated with their government.
- sudmah 14y ago
  IT IS AMERICA THAT IS THE POLICE STATE. BIG BROTHER. http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-rec.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-... http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...
  - deleted 14y ago
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- vishaldpatel 14y ago
  Why didn't your employer get it done for you? If it was a big firm then they'd have someone who knows their way around the system to get things like this done efficiently.
  - 14y ago
suprgeek 14y ago
The problem with the Indian govt is that it is known to take the most sweeping knee-jerk but completely ineffective measures in tackling security: some examples- - SMS used to spread inflammatory stuff? BAN SMS - Bicycles used as bomb placement locations? - ID needed to buy bicycles - E-mail used to claim credit for incidents? - Strong ID proof for surfing the net - Many terrorists that the incompetent intelligence agencies cannot track? every tenant in any rental place needs to submit to "Police Verification" - etc, etc etc Incompetence and Dysfunction combined with corruption & fear - Result > current state of India
anuraj 14y ago
India is not a functional state. It is not a state even. It is a collection diverse states that are held together through British Era bureaucracy. The states that indian union is composed of has very different outlooks and cultures. Blame it on British for the invention of India!
ashray 14y ago
In all of this the funniest part is that the government/bureaucracy is so uselessly inefficient and corrupt that the very IDs they ask for are meaningless. Case in point, my driving license has my name and address incorrectly written on it. I didn't make any effort to do this, it was just carelessness by the person filling in the details. I can now continuously use this as an ID everywhere and they believe they are 'tracking' me. Extend this to the other millions of folks out there who have similar documents. The main issue here is that they are trying to track people with a broken system. Their efforts at security are laughable at best and redundant at worst. Meanwhile the average Indian citizen suffers from documentation hell. (unless they're friends with someone important ;) Obviously there's also the question: Should they try to track you ? Unfortunately respect for the average individual in India is so low that this discussion does not make sense there. Privacy has absolutely no meaning in India. It's almost like asking "Should dogs wear collars ?". There are no philosophical discussions involved. Just practical ones.
sudmah 14y ago
its official America is also a police state, how disturbing http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-rec.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-...
phusuke 14y ago
I have a problem with people who like to call India simply a dysfunctional state. What does that even mean? The author here is hypothesizing a reason for the dysfunction. Its just a hypothesis but its still well ahead of calling it simply broken. Also I believe 'police state' doesnt imply big-brother-esque behavior on the part of the govt. Even unending policing and related rules can be called that. Far too many people especially Indians take comfort in calling it 'simply dysfunctional' thereby oversimplifying the situation and hence not bothering to find out what can be done to improve.
BVRS 14y ago
SAD but True Factis that the Government is the Biggest Mafia in India.Bureaucracy Feeds and Chain of Bribery The whole idea of both Government and the Bureaucracy is to prove that any common man has to be common without basic privileges of questioning any action of the government and bureaucracy.Fairness has vanished from system, and has replaced by MONEY TALKS XXXX XXIT WALKS, not only walks but flies.Accountability to commonman is unheard off. Here the underlying priciple of both the Government and bureaucracy is to make laws to cripple common man and extort money.EARLIER IT WAS ONLY THE CORRUPTION,BUT NOW,VERY VERY SAD THAT INHUMANITY is in the Blood stream of Indians. Government Talks about subsidies as way of helping common man, but ultimately it has created a subsidy mafia, in every sphere. ACTS LIKE RTI AND SOME STATES BILLS OF RIGHT OF CITIZENS SERVICES ARE SIMPLY BEING IGNORED BY BURECRACY , THEY DO NOT ANSWER TO MAILS OF COMMON MAN.I AM YET TO FIND A BUREAUCRAT BEING PUNISHED FOR DENIAL OF SERVICE TO TAX PAYING CITIZEN BUT ON THE CONTRARY THEY GET PROMOTED .LOOK AT THESE KINDS OF MESSAGES BEING PASSED ON TO GENERAL PUBLIC, DARE NOT TOUCH US GOVERNMENT AND BUREACRACY .FORGET TOUCHING YOU GLARE AT US YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.

93 points by kshatrea 14y ago

IF I WANT TO GO US, I HAVE TO GIVE MY BLOOD, MY DNA. THIS IS DUE TO RISK FROM TERROIST. HAS THIS SYSTEM EVER STOPPED A TERROIST ATTACK. AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE WHERE IF YOU DOWNLOAD AND SHARE A FEW SONGS, YOU WILL HAVE TO SELL YOUR HOUSE TO PAY THE OUTRAGEOUS FINES. ALL IN THE NAME IF THE RIAA.

nrbafna 14y ago
This is a wrong way to reason about it. The article appears in an Indian paper, why single out U.S. as the country to compare to? Also, just because other countries have other restrictions (wrong or otherwise), that doesn't justify such restrictions in India. P.S. Avoid typing in all caps. It comes off as rude.
- sudmah 14y ago
  I'm actually quite fed up with people portraying India negatively. Oprah Winfrey has done this and I am surprised at how this seems to be the consensus with the media. Yes India has some issues with policy and infrastructure, however they are trying to sort this problem out. Have you heard of the 4g network that's a work in progress? If you actually read the article you would know that non Indian wrote it. "It’s a police state here in Delhi. Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort, and then they copy my passport." Now hold on since when was India, Delhi. Do you even know what a police state is? "Some want only a government-issued ID. Some insist upon an ID with a photograph. And there are some who have a fascination for your passport or driving licence – nothing else will do. I mean, just to check a mail, which will take 5 minutes, you have to fill in a form (particulars in a register) and submit a copy of a “proper” ID" I live in the UK. I'm 27 years old and when I go to the buy cigarettes. I am asked for Id, only photo id will do. I have no driving licence so am forced to use my passport. Same thing happens when I buy alcohol and at bars clubs. Having to give my id to an arrogant bouncer who can blatantly tell I'm over 18 is greatly annoying. Every internet café I have ever been to in the U.K has CCTV. the owners of the internet café also has to keep a record of all sites visited. Maybe India should take this big brother approach.
  - kshatrea 14y ago
    > If you actually read the article you would know that non Indian wrote it. Dead wrong. Jawed Anwar wrote it, a ToI columnist. He just quoted Soghoian's tweet and used that as linkbait. I posted this article on HN, without the question mark as heading, because this is one headline where Betteridge's law would not apply.
    - sudmah 14y ago
      im referring to Soghoian
      - prakashk 14y ago
        You'd still be wrong. Soghoian's "contribution" to the article is just his tweet cited by the actual author and nothing more.
  - RobAley 14y ago
    > the owners of the internet café also has to keep a record of all sites visited Sorry, but that is just not true.
    - sudmah 14y ago
      Ok maybe not all site but they are encourage to snoop http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/uk-police-asks-internet-cafes-to-monitor-customers-1928322.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/new... bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18434112
      - RobAley 14y ago
        Virtually no cafe's (by which I mean I know of none and have heard of none) do what the Police are asking in your first link. It is completely optional, and indeed may break other laws such as the Data Protection Act if not done properly and with notice to the user. With regards to the second link, that law is a fair way off and already faces quite stiff opposition. Similar but less intrusive laws already in place which require ISPs to retain certain logs if requested have not yet proved too onerous (and have not been abused on a large scale), and certainly don't interfere directly with most peoples use of the net, at home or in public spaces like internet cafes. This isn't to say that I support the existing laws, I don't, but they are in no way of the same type, scale or intrusiveness as the situation described in the article.
sifar 14y ago
First of all this was not about the US but India. 1) courier companies opening your packages - check 2) problem furnishing address proof if working in a different city - check Having experienced most of these things, I totally agree with the article. The whole premise of stricter laws equals better security is false. These just enable the police to harass the people more. Yes US has its share of idiotic/draconian(or whatever) laws in the name of security. It doesn't mean India should have the same moronic laws. The difference is that privacy is taken pretty seriously in the US while in India people by and large have no sense of respect towards an individual's privacy. BTW, no need to shout (if your caps lock was not enabled by mistake).

sigkill 14y ago

RE: Cybercafe - To be fair, they do this because they don't have the infrastructure or the technology to track you and all your data. RE: Bank accounts - Yeah, I've heard this happen from my friends. But they say that it's quite much easier to open accounts in private banks as compared to the "State Banks". But even they require some sort of person to vouch for you.

sifar 14y ago
They should not track my data. Period. Yes, so one has to use other means to remain anonymous.

huntesh 14y ago

we are turning into communist nut-jobs. Thanks to the gandhi family and congress. gandhi family were lead in forming the congress party which was formed under british rule to support british indra gandhi declared an emergency and edited the constituent of india(made us socialist) *gandhi brought u features like no more than 20 SMS per mobile no more cars below 16 liter/KM average 10^32 scams a shitty budget that gives average family 1000Rs off on income tax while increasing taxes on corporations by a factor of 2 free mobile phones for poor(lol) the biggest mid day meal till date(billions Rs spend) ....I can go on all day It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time. Wishing BJP(ie Modi) to take over...

sdqali 14y ago
"It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time." Citation, please!
intended 14y ago
Wow, several new profiles of 3 hours or less on HN, and ALL have terrible posts. I think HN got linked somewhere. For people unaware - Bashing the Gandhi family and Congress is a common past time, but beyond that it gets split across people 2 factions which are rife with, if not build directly out of, hate/venom/ideologies. Its sort of the Republicans vs Democrats, with less long term ideals and more unalloyed hate. Ask either side for data or logic and they usually can't get too far. If they do, they have their own skewed interpretations of what happened. Both sides are bad, one is more vocal.
kamaal 14y ago
Don't know what you wish to say here. I am a native Bangalorean. And from what I know of history our state. Close 99.99% of IT growth work you see today was the work of Deve Gowda(JD-S) and SM Krishna(Congress). On top of that biggest projects were conceived under Congress- IT Park constructions, Bangalore Metro etc. Not a single thing has happened under BJP. The biggest scam in Karnataka's history mining scam happened and was done by BJP MLAs. Avoid venting your political opinions here. like 'intended' user mentioned rationally there is hardly a party in India which isn't corrupt.

zakshay 14y ago

My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you. Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery & pickup culture. You can get virtually anything home delivered like fresh meat, booze, and ofcourse snacks(see 2) etc. Also pickup services like laundry (one of many), are really popular. Need a new credit card, or a phone connection ? You can have a representative visit you. These kinda of services are primarily possible to India's abundance human resource (and various other factors of course). In my opinion, these are more accessible that internet based services are they rely on a phone. Its a pity that blog posts these get a lot of attention because of their extreme nature. Most of the local media tends to be sensationalistic, for grabbing eye balls I guess My daily reads of good quality Indian news are * http://www.thehindu.com/ http://www.thehindu.com/ * http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/ http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/ References: 1 Eg. http://justdial.com http://justdial.com 2 Eg. http://www.delyver.com/ http://www.delyver.com/

sifar 14y ago
The article is not so much about unavailability of services as it is about lack of privacy.
sudmah 14y ago
I agree
quadhome 14y ago
Are you in Bangalore?
intended 14y ago
And my experiences include both: It IS absurd: That in a country which is implementing a Universal Identity system for all its citizens, It wants to track: 1) Where and when you use public wifi 2) Where and when you stay at a hotel 3) Where when and what you send in parcels (all countries prevent sending illegal goods) 4) when you apply for gas 5) apply for a mobile phone and on. Words cannot express my bewilderment when otherwise intelligent people argue that this is for the benefit for our country. India's solution to solving problems is to assume that its citizens are criminals, and that more monitoring will help. And the citizens response is to accuse the government of being criminals. At the same time it doesn't detract from: 1) Great strides and innovation in mobile value added services. Forget SMSes, or calling up toll free numbers for information. You can give a missed call to some numbers and companies will call you back. That blew my mind when you consider the cost is 0. 2) Lots of human advantages as mentioned, delivery systems to your doorstep. Both co-exist. Yet explaining one doesn't detract from the other. And of the examples mentioned, the constant growth of India as a police state IS far more important than highlighting the positives of the country.

phaedrus81 14y ago

I am not sure if India is a police state yet or not. I think tourists don't have it easy as they don't understand the country as well as the natives. If you are a native you do know how to get things done. However, it is true that India is on the slippery slope where its most important democratic institutions are slowly breaking down. The first to go was the media, an example of which was the media now running paid columns as well as the attacks on journalists who threaten the status quo. The next in line is the judiciary. While the top levels of the judiciary seem to be still untainted, the lower levels seem to have been corrupted. The Election Commision was tainted a long time back as well. All this is happening and most of the middle class is unconcerned at this stage.

intended 14y ago
True. The recent media coverage of the recent riots and migration was distressing, marking yet another nadir in their slide downwards. I got better reports from following leads on reddit and forums than I did from looking at the media. At first I didn't give credence to what people said about the media being mouth pieces for various parties. Now I wouldn't trust them if they told me the earth was round. The judiciary is doing a better job, but are constantly having to encroach on duties supposed to be carried out by the government. Take the idea of Public Interest Litigations which were propounded by a Chief Justice. They in turn became a corner stone of the fight against corruption. Allowing people to take up injustices so that the common good can be defended. Fortunately the election commission found its teeth a while back and fought hard against to bring us fair elections. Unfortunately there were some signs of push back against the EC recently, so the next wave is underway by the looks of things. Similarly the government is headed by what should be the most progressive of leaders, the man who helped create the 1991 liberalization reforms. Yet it is constantly hamstrung by its own politics to increase its power, and at the mercy of pro communist, anti market, and anti progress swing parties. The middle class WAS concerned recently with the Anna Hazare campaigns to push for an anti corruption ombudsman. That was frightening to an extent for the government because they had a vote bank which was apathetic suddenly show signs of life. The subsequent destruction and implosion of the organizers of the anti corruption drive, have now left the middle class in a stage between waking and sleeping.

twilightfog 14y ago

Looks like the writer has a bone to pick, some of the instances he has listed are quite possibly the worst-case scenarios for every situation he has described. Here's my attempt to explain some of his "issues": > No Public Wi-Fi : Several restaurants in Delhi/NCR have free WiFi, sure you probably need to buy a coffee or something, but that's hardly an expense. You won't find a public open WiFi when walking down the road, because most WiFi networks here are private networks and the their owners have opted to secure them. > Cyber Cafes require passport - They need any ID proof. DL/PAN Card/Passport/Ration Card/Student ID (virtually anything goes) and they need a copy for their records. If you checked into any hotel in India or abroad, they do the same, I don't see him complaining about that. No Cyber cafes will insist for just DL / Passport, if they do, simply walk to the next one, they have a lot of competition. > FIR required to get a new SIM - Not any more, I got a replacement SIM without requiring to submit a FIR for my lost phone. He skipped to mention his cell phone operator. > Color Photocopies issues - If you get a color photocopy of a ID or a mark sheet, they simply stamp a small message in a corner "COLOR PHOTOCOPY, NOT ORIGINAL" or something to that effect. I find this practice perfectly reasonable. > Courier DHL / Bluedart - Some courier companies are finicky about sending certain items not because of "security" concerns, but they prefer to avoid food items or glass containers. The solution is to simply walk to the next courier service. Again, the competition is quite high in this sector, and DHL and Bluedart can get away with this behavior, however that's where smaller courier services step in. > Tenant verification - Yes, the tenants need to be verified, but it is not strictly implemented. Breaking news: Yes, the police officers can act like assholes sometimes, and talking about his colleague in a relatively isolated incident is a good way to prove his suspicions! > Bank Accounts - The "vouching" system is a decades old tradition when the banking system in India was membership based. It is no longer the case even in most public sector banks, and no private sector banks implement that. > Proof of residence - There are several alternate proof of residence which a citizen can furnish (and are widely accepted) : LPG Connection Bill, Electricity Bill, Voter ID, Passport etc. Take your pick. A legal resident in India will have atleast 1 of these, if not more. Ultimately I find the author biased and and focusing on the border-line cases in each scenario. Its ludicrous to believe that he faced these issues everyday he left his home.

dharmach 14y ago

The Worst Argument In The World (lesswrong.com) http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/

ck2 14y ago

Your police aren't given $100 Million from taxpayers to buy toys like this, including land and air drones. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-security-gear-protecting-conventions/56174/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-sec... I think US has India and virtually all other countries beat. I expect they are going to start to do random stops for IRIS scans like they do in the middle-east over here soon - you know, for all the terrorists roaming our streets and airports and buses and trains.

tptacek 14y ago
Huh? This article says that in India, the police have required store owners to collect ID before allowing people to use the Internet, have required hotel owners to deny rooms to people from Delhi, require police verification before you can rent an apartment, and require witness statements to open a bank account. And so you have one article suggesting that the police somewhere wasted money on an APC, and now "we have them beat"? What kind of argument is that?
- ck2 14y ago
  You are talking about policy which can be undone with laws. Try DE-militarizing our police which respond with massive weapon-grade force to unarmed, legal, protests (or shoot a dozen innocent bystanders to get to one crazy person).

quanticle 14y ago

I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that. No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be inspected to ensure that they're keeping track of their customers. The department that manages to grab that privilege has access to more lobbying power, more bribes, and more influence. Any politician would lust after side-benefits like that. So, after any catastrophe, the answer is always more regulations and more inspections, regardless of whether those regulations and inspections would do anything to actually solve the problem.

cdi 14y ago
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jan/08/kishwar-desai-hero-irom-chanu-sharmila http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jan/08/kishwar-desai-he... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irom_Sharmila http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irom_Sharmila
- kamaal 14y ago
  For those who don't know the back ground context behind these links. The reason she is protesting is a law called Army Special Powers Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_%28Special_Powers%29_Act,_1958 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_%28Special_Powers%... Why the law was enforced in her region etc is a huge history and is well beyond the scope of a HN comment.
CWuestefeld 14y ago
India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. Even that is interesting. It shows us that bureaucracy (and, I'd say, failure to respect one's property rights) can become indistinguishable from a police state.
- smutticus 14y ago
  I'll just leave this here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial

areddy 14y ago

We been called many names but never a police state.His cry is all about providing id. One 9/11 and the government started stripping people and entering your bed rooms.In India, the average ratio of a police to citizens is around 1:200. This is from major cities. When you go rural, the ratio will shrink further. Considering the number of terrorist attacks we have and population density, ids are the bare minimum preventive measure we have.For Indians, the accepted id can be any one of voter id, driving license, atm card with photo, ration card, passport and college id. Even my son's play school id was accepted in air port. We usually keep photo copies of one of the above. I am surprised to see crap like this got many points. What's next? something related to Jersey shore?

dr_ 14y ago

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not checked in with the local police after returning. This was confusing to me but this said its a requirement for any foreigner leaving and returning within a 2 month period. As such, they wouldn't let me board the plane. I stayed in a hotel near the airport thru the weekend. On a Monday I went to the appropriate station, where there was a long line of foreigners in a similar predicament. When it was my turn, I was told i would need to show proof of a relative or someone I was staying with, so my uncle came and brought his passport and electric bill. Then I was told it would take some time, but he went in the back, met the director of that station and talked him up by mentioning people they knew in common and I got approved. Then there were no seats on my plane available for the rest of the week, but I had to get back to work, so I bought a new ticket and went home. I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again.

ta12121 14y ago
Perhaps they were trying to motivate you into bribing them.
sudmah 14y ago
Stay in the US and have your so called right to privacy http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...
kamaal 14y ago
>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced what each of your country men experiences everyday. I don't see why anybody would give you preferential treatment- merely because you returned from the US. Besides this reminds of an incident about Gandhi, when he was asked why he wears and lives like a peasant after living in South Africa as a barrister wearing a suit, necktie, pant and shoes all the time. He replied that only way he can be one among the Indian and convince Indians that he can fight for them is to live like they live, wear what they wear and eat what they eat. To rub shoulders with ordinary Indian in their day to day lives. Every time a NRI complains about stuff like this I always wonder- legally sure you might be an Indian. But are you actually an 'Indian'?

rheide 14y ago

Great website.. As soon as I open it a javascript popup shows saying "ReferenceError: FB not defined".

eru 14y ago
I get: "TypeError: Object #<Object> has no method 'api'"
fakeer 14y ago
It's probably the most famous Indian newspaper. Specializes in bringing page 3 to page 1. Suppose one of our sports star (read cricket star) does good and there's some serious political or militnacy related event, it knows how to skip the other news. But you know what the shameful part is? People still prefer it over other newspapers. PS. Not commenting on article but the quality of newspaper :-)

manojlds 14y ago

> Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort That boils down, mostly, to poor infrastructure. It's getting better at airports. > This is a police requirement that is supposed to track terrorists. Unfortunately, we are yet to see a case where this requirement has managed to stop a terror attack in India. It is known with proofs that many threats emails were sent from internet cafes. That was the real motive. > Photocopy issues I carry color photocopied ids everywhere in India. This is about not knowing where to get what. > But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens. No free country harasses, and humiliates, its own citizens. TSA of the US comes to my mind, and that too, is just a security theatre as has been pointed out so many times here on HN!

sudmah 14y ago

OMG ITS OFFICIAL, AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE. IM SO ASHAMED OF THE U.S. WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT THIS ATROCITY COULD HAPPED. CHECK THIS OUT http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-rec.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenewsV http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-... http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...

sudmah 14y ago

IF India is a Police state then America is Big brother check this link out http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...

leeoniya 14y ago

"But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens." don't be so certain.

smutticus 14y ago

India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery. Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the disorganized mafia state. I had an easier time getting a work permit in Russia last year than India. The sheer amount of paperwork and rubber stamps required for my Indian work permit was the worst I have ever had to deal with and I've worked all over the world. All of this paperwork and stamping allows perfect opportunities for small time bureaucrats to extract bribes and favors from people who just need to get something done. So when I look at something like requiring ID to use wifi I don't see Total Information Awareness. I see Tammany Hall and a genius system that's operating exactly as it was designed, to extract graft from normal people at every possible opportunity. Disclaimer: I lived in India for 0.5 years in '99 and recently worked there again in 2011 for a month. My answers are based on these experiences and of knowing lots of Indians frustrated with their government.

sudmah 14y ago
IT IS AMERICA THAT IS THE POLICE STATE. BIG BROTHER. http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-rec.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-... http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-surveillance-citizens-nsa-freedom/ http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
vishaldpatel 14y ago
Why didn't your employer get it done for you? If it was a big firm then they'd have someone who knows their way around the system to get things like this done efficiently.
- 14y ago

suprgeek 14y ago

The problem with the Indian govt is that it is known to take the most sweeping knee-jerk but completely ineffective measures in tackling security: some examples- - SMS used to spread inflammatory stuff? BAN SMS - Bicycles used as bomb placement locations? - ID needed to buy bicycles - E-mail used to claim credit for incidents? - Strong ID proof for surfing the net - Many terrorists that the incompetent intelligence agencies cannot track? every tenant in any rental place needs to submit to "Police Verification" - etc, etc etc Incompetence and Dysfunction combined with corruption & fear - Result > current state of India

anuraj 14y ago

India is not a functional state. It is not a state even. It is a collection diverse states that are held together through British Era bureaucracy. The states that indian union is composed of has very different outlooks and cultures. Blame it on British for the invention of India!

ashray 14y ago

In all of this the funniest part is that the government/bureaucracy is so uselessly inefficient and corrupt that the very IDs they ask for are meaningless. Case in point, my driving license has my name and address incorrectly written on it. I didn't make any effort to do this, it was just carelessness by the person filling in the details. I can now continuously use this as an ID everywhere and they believe they are 'tracking' me. Extend this to the other millions of folks out there who have similar documents. The main issue here is that they are trying to track people with a broken system. Their efforts at security are laughable at best and redundant at worst. Meanwhile the average Indian citizen suffers from documentation hell. (unless they're friends with someone important ;) Obviously there's also the question: Should they try to track you ? Unfortunately respect for the average individual in India is so low that this discussion does not make sense there. Privacy has absolutely no meaning in India. It's almost like asking "Should dogs wear collars ?". There are no philosophical discussions involved. Just practical ones.

sudmah 14y ago

its official America is also a police state, how disturbing http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-rec.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-...

phusuke 14y ago

I have a problem with people who like to call India simply a dysfunctional state. What does that even mean? The author here is hypothesizing a reason for the dysfunction. Its just a hypothesis but its still well ahead of calling it simply broken. Also I believe 'police state' doesnt imply big-brother-esque behavior on the part of the govt. Even unending policing and related rules can be called that. Far too many people especially Indians take comfort in calling it 'simply dysfunctional' thereby oversimplifying the situation and hence not bothering to find out what can be done to improve.

BVRS 14y ago

SAD but True Factis that the Government is the Biggest Mafia in India.Bureaucracy Feeds and Chain of Bribery The whole idea of both Government and the Bureaucracy is to prove that any common man has to be common without basic privileges of questioning any action of the government and bureaucracy.Fairness has vanished from system, and has replaced by MONEY TALKS XXXX XXIT WALKS, not only walks but flies.Accountability to commonman is unheard off. Here the underlying priciple of both the Government and bureaucracy is to make laws to cripple common man and extort money.EARLIER IT WAS ONLY THE CORRUPTION,BUT NOW,VERY VERY SAD THAT INHUMANITY is in the Blood stream of Indians. Government Talks about subsidies as way of helping common man, but ultimately it has created a subsidy mafia, in every sphere. ACTS LIKE RTI AND SOME STATES BILLS OF RIGHT OF CITIZENS SERVICES ARE SIMPLY BEING IGNORED BY BURECRACY , THEY DO NOT ANSWER TO MAILS OF COMMON MAN.I AM YET TO FIND A BUREAUCRAT BEING PUNISHED FOR DENIAL OF SERVICE TO TAX PAYING CITIZEN BUT ON THE CONTRARY THEY GET PROMOTED .LOOK AT THESE KINDS OF MESSAGES BEING PASSED ON TO GENERAL PUBLIC, DARE NOT TOUCH US GOVERNMENT AND BUREACRACY .FORGET TOUCHING YOU GLARE AT US YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.