4 ms·

I remember reading this paper when it came out, didn't think it would be commercializable, and here we are. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2486001.2486039 http

by yborg 1y ago

I remember reading this paper when it came out, didn't think it would be commercializable, and here we are. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2486001.2486039 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2486001.2486039

hopelite 1y ago
I have a sneaky suspicion this is not something that Xfinity/Comcast just woke up one day and thought they should implement. This has all the hallmarks of the treasonous surveillance state injecting itself to instrumentalize corporations to claim they’re not violating the supreme law called the Constitution if they simply make others commit the treasonous crimes against the people. Because we all know, of course, the Constitution only applies to the federal government, right? If mega-corporation USA Inc uses its shell company Comcast to violate the Supreme law of the land in a treasonous manner, then you are of course SOL asa mere citizen since they aren’t the federal government and the Constitution does not apply to them. In case it want clear, that was sarcasm.
- schiffern 1y ago
  I miss the old days when this would come off like a crazy rant, rather than being the evening news. In case people missed it: https://theconversation.com/from-help-to-harm-how-the-government-is-quietly-repurposing-everyones-data-for-surveillance-254690 https://theconversation.com/from-help-to-harm-how-the-govern... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/even-government-thinks-it-should-stop-buying-corporate-surveillance-data https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/even-government-thinks... https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/28/government-buying-your-data-00143742 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/28/government...
- sojsurf 1y ago
  I was just reading up on wifi 7 today. It sounds like the spec was designed with WIFI sensing in mind.
- Tijdreiziger 1y ago
  That’s speculation. In the article, you can see that it’s meant as a pseudo-alarm system. It’s plausible that someone at Comcast thought this is a value-add. (Netgear already offered this as a feature on their routers, it’s not a novel concept.) Even within tech circles, lots of people aren’t worried about privacy and even have indoor cameras in their homes.
andy_xor_andrew 1y ago
Yeah, it's bizarre. Normally the pathway for this kind of thing would be: 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. not feasible in real-world use (fizzles and dies) if you're lucky the path is like 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. actually somewhat feasible in real-world use! 4. startups / researchers split off to attempt to market it (fizzles and dies) the fact that this ended up going from research paper to "Comcast can tell if I'm home based on my body's physical interaction with wifi waves" is absolutely wild
- transpute 1y ago
  > the fact that this ended up going from research paper to "Comcast can tell if I'm home based on my body's physical interaction with wifi waves" is absolutely wild The 15-year path was roughly: 1. bespoke military use (see+shoot through wall) 2. bespoke law-enforcement use (occupancy, activity) 3. public research papers by MIT and others 4. open firmware for Intel modems 5. 1000+ research papers using open firmware 6. bespoke offensive/criminal/state malware 7. bespoke commercial niche implementations 8. IEEE standardization (802.11bf) 9. (very few) open-source countermeasures 10. ISP routers implementing draft IEEE standard 11. (upcoming) many new WiFi 7+ devices with Sensing features https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/02/27/1088154/wifi-sensing-tracking-movements/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/02/27/1088154/wifi-sen... > There is one area that the IEEE is not working on, at least not directly: privacy and security.. IEEE fellow and member of the Wi-Fi sensing task group.. the goal is to focus on “at least get the sensing measurements done.” He says that the committee did discuss privacy and security: “Some individuals have raised concerns, including myself.” But they decided that while those concerns do need to be addressed, they are not within the committee’s mandate.
  - ddq 1y ago
    Sounds like IEEE is in need of fresh leadership and soon. Complacency at this point is folly.
- nomel 1y ago
  It's not too crazy, if you're familiar with comms systems. The ability to do this is a necessity for a comm system working in a reflective environment: cancel out the reflections with an adaptive filter, residual is now a high-pass result of the motion. It's the same concept that makes your cell location data so profitable, and how 10G ethernet is possible over copper, with the hybrid front end cancelling reflections from kinks in the cable (and why physical wiggling the cable will cause packet CRC errors). It's, quite literally, "already there" for almost every modern MIMO system, just maybe not exposed for use.
aaron695 1y ago
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by yborg 1y ago

hopelite 1y ago

I have a sneaky suspicion this is not something that Xfinity/Comcast just woke up one day and thought they should implement. This has all the hallmarks of the treasonous surveillance state injecting itself to instrumentalize corporations to claim they’re not violating the supreme law called the Constitution if they simply make others commit the treasonous crimes against the people. Because we all know, of course, the Constitution only applies to the federal government, right? If mega-corporation USA Inc uses its shell company Comcast to violate the Supreme law of the land in a treasonous manner, then you are of course SOL asa mere citizen since they aren’t the federal government and the Constitution does not apply to them. In case it want clear, that was sarcasm.

schiffern 1y ago
I miss the old days when this would come off like a crazy rant, rather than being the evening news. In case people missed it: https://theconversation.com/from-help-to-harm-how-the-government-is-quietly-repurposing-everyones-data-for-surveillance-254690 https://theconversation.com/from-help-to-harm-how-the-govern... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/even-government-thinks-it-should-stop-buying-corporate-surveillance-data https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/even-government-thinks... https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/28/government-buying-your-data-00143742 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/28/government...
sojsurf 1y ago
I was just reading up on wifi 7 today. It sounds like the spec was designed with WIFI sensing in mind.
Tijdreiziger 1y ago
That’s speculation. In the article, you can see that it’s meant as a pseudo-alarm system. It’s plausible that someone at Comcast thought this is a value-add. (Netgear already offered this as a feature on their routers, it’s not a novel concept.) Even within tech circles, lots of people aren’t worried about privacy and even have indoor cameras in their homes.

andy_xor_andrew 1y ago

Yeah, it's bizarre. Normally the pathway for this kind of thing would be: 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. not feasible in real-world use (fizzles and dies) if you're lucky the path is like 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. actually somewhat feasible in real-world use! 4. startups / researchers split off to attempt to market it (fizzles and dies) the fact that this ended up going from research paper to "Comcast can tell if I'm home based on my body's physical interaction with wifi waves" is absolutely wild

transpute 1y ago
> the fact that this ended up going from research paper to "Comcast can tell if I'm home based on my body's physical interaction with wifi waves" is absolutely wild The 15-year path was roughly: 1. bespoke military use (see+shoot through wall) 2. bespoke law-enforcement use (occupancy, activity) 3. public research papers by MIT and others 4. open firmware for Intel modems 5. 1000+ research papers using open firmware 6. bespoke offensive/criminal/state malware 7. bespoke commercial niche implementations 8. IEEE standardization (802.11bf) 9. (very few) open-source countermeasures 10. ISP routers implementing draft IEEE standard 11. (upcoming) many new WiFi 7+ devices with Sensing features https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/02/27/1088154/wifi-sensing-tracking-movements/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/02/27/1088154/wifi-sen... > There is one area that the IEEE is not working on, at least not directly: privacy and security.. IEEE fellow and member of the Wi-Fi sensing task group.. the goal is to focus on “at least get the sensing measurements done.” He says that the committee did discuss privacy and security: “Some individuals have raised concerns, including myself.” But they decided that while those concerns do need to be addressed, they are not within the committee’s mandate.
- ddq 1y ago
  Sounds like IEEE is in need of fresh leadership and soon. Complacency at this point is folly.
nomel 1y ago
It's not too crazy, if you're familiar with comms systems. The ability to do this is a necessity for a comm system working in a reflective environment: cancel out the reflections with an adaptive filter, residual is now a high-pass result of the motion. It's the same concept that makes your cell location data so profitable, and how 10G ethernet is possible over copper, with the hybrid front end cancelling reflections from kinks in the cable (and why physical wiggling the cable will cause packet CRC errors). It's, quite literally, "already there" for almost every modern MIMO system, just maybe not exposed for use.

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]