4 ms·

I assume this is largely a US thing? Do other places have similar behaviors? I seem to recall many people from over seas were surprised that we let dogs in th

by taeric 1y ago

I assume this is largely a US thing? Do other places have similar behaviors? I seem to recall many people from over seas were surprised that we let dogs in the house. That last is always amusing to contrast with how hard of a line some people take on not doing shoes in the house, but then seemingly fine with pets.

TulliusCicero 1y ago
US rules around service animals (typically dogs) are a bit odd. You're allowed to take a service dog nearly anywhere, which itself is fine, but the problem is that there's no official licensing system that a business could somehow check to make sure your animal is legit. Legally, they're only allowed to ask what service the animal provides and they can kick it out if it's disruptive. So the inevitable result is people taking advantage of this legal gray area by bringing in dogs that they pretend are sorta-service dogs (emotional support/therapy dogs) and getting away with it for the reasons explained in the article. And once those dogs are normalized, then it seems like dogs in general are okay and so just about anyone might decide to bring in their dog. A common point of comparison here is handicapped parking spots, since it's also a situation where the handicapped are granted a special privilege to mitigate the handicap, but obviously for parking spots there's a whole legal system for being allowed to park in those special spots. You can't just "self certify" that you can park in a handicapped spot, you have to get a placard from the government that you put on display on your car.
- baggy_trough 1y ago
  Clearly we need such a licensing system, and such license would need to be displayed on the service animal. The lack thereof seems like yet another indicator that our government cannot legislate itself out of a paper bag.
  - TulliusCicero 1y ago
    I completely agree, though unlike the author I don't really have an issue with people bringing dogs into some kinds of businesses. Restaurants and grocery stores no, but something like a hardware store I'm fine with.
    - devilbunny 1y ago
      Non-food establishments generally don't ban dogs, or don't enforce it at all. I've taken a dog into many such places. It's my wife's chihuahua, so I just carry her - no risk that she will use the store as a latrine.
  - sarchertech 1y ago
    The problem is that when the ADA was passed no one conceived that a change in culture would make it common for people to want to bring their dogs into restaurants and coffee shops. And now that it is common, there’s no political will to revisit this issue.
    - TulliusCicero 1y ago
      There's probably political will at the local or state level in some areas, but of course local and state laws can't override a federal one like the ADA.
      - sarchertech 1y ago
        That’s a very good point.
- mgraczyk 1y ago
  You can easily buy handicap placards online. It's actually pretty similar to the dog thing, mostly a way to get out of paying for parking
  - sarchertech 1y ago
    But unlike the dog thing, using a fake handicapped placard is actually illegal, and if you’re caught doing it, in most states there are significant fines. Some states even have jail time for repeat offenders.
    - mgraczyk 1y ago
      I'm not talking about fake placards. You can get real ones online very easily via telehealth, or in person from many chiropractor or other sham providers
      - sarchertech 1y ago
        I don’t doubt that it happens, but most doctors and other qualified practitioners are hesitant to authorize placards without a valid reason (and in many cases they are hesitant even with a valid reason). Unlike signing a letter stating that someone needs an emotional support animal, there are real consequences for a doctor authorizing too many. The DMV in many states does actually investigate handicap parking fraud. In the states where chiropractors can authorize placards, they can and do lose their licenses for exaggerating or inventing conditions. If you read up on it, it’s not as easy as you might think—especially if you want more than a temporary 6 month placard. There are scores of people complaining about how it took them a decade or longer to get one.
- kayodelycaon 1y ago
  An interesting note is a service dog is basically medical equipment. They override any other disability. Including people with unfortunate combination of severe asthma and dog allergy. If you have an employee who has been previously sent to a hospital due to a customer’s service dog, you need to figure out a solution because you’re not allowed to ban the dog. And you’re not allowed to fire the employee because they have a medical condition.
  - taeric 1y ago
    This feels susp. Do you have case law showing this to be the case? Because you don't get a free pass with "medical equipment" in any other situation. You don't even get a free pass with "medication" in situations. Quite the contrary, there are some where you are explicitly told not to do things if you are on the medication.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - kayodelycaon 1y ago
      > Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility, for example, in a school classroom or at a homeless shelter, they both should be accommodated by assigning them, if possible, to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility. https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/ https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requireme... There is far more to it than this. I did extensive research on service dogs and emotional support animals in 2015 when I was on staff of a convention. I’m also very familiar with ADA due to my own disability. For example, off-hours support is not a considered an essential part of writing software, so you can’t enforce “you broke it, you support it” policies on people with work hour restrictions. Some people get really worked up about that.
      - taeric 1y ago
sarchertech 1y ago
30 or 40 years ago it was much more common for people to have outside dogs in the US. But it was also common to tie dogs up for long periods of time, which in most places will get you fined these days.
jjmarr 1y ago
Most countries do not mandate accessibility in public accomodations to the extent the United States does. Since the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act, any disabled person can sue a business and get statutory penalties for a lack of accomodation. Wrongfully denying a service dog can cost tens of thousands of dollars. Europe doesn't have this mechanism. There's less abuse of accomodations as a result. But nothing is wheelchair accessible.

by taeric 1y ago

TulliusCicero 1y ago

US rules around service animals (typically dogs) are a bit odd. You're allowed to take a service dog nearly anywhere, which itself is fine, but the problem is that there's no official licensing system that a business could somehow check to make sure your animal is legit. Legally, they're only allowed to ask what service the animal provides and they can kick it out if it's disruptive. So the inevitable result is people taking advantage of this legal gray area by bringing in dogs that they pretend are sorta-service dogs (emotional support/therapy dogs) and getting away with it for the reasons explained in the article. And once those dogs are normalized, then it seems like dogs in general are okay and so just about anyone might decide to bring in their dog. A common point of comparison here is handicapped parking spots, since it's also a situation where the handicapped are granted a special privilege to mitigate the handicap, but obviously for parking spots there's a whole legal system for being allowed to park in those special spots. You can't just "self certify" that you can park in a handicapped spot, you have to get a placard from the government that you put on display on your car.

baggy_trough 1y ago
Clearly we need such a licensing system, and such license would need to be displayed on the service animal. The lack thereof seems like yet another indicator that our government cannot legislate itself out of a paper bag.
- TulliusCicero 1y ago
  I completely agree, though unlike the author I don't really have an issue with people bringing dogs into some kinds of businesses. Restaurants and grocery stores no, but something like a hardware store I'm fine with.
  - devilbunny 1y ago
    Non-food establishments generally don't ban dogs, or don't enforce it at all. I've taken a dog into many such places. It's my wife's chihuahua, so I just carry her - no risk that she will use the store as a latrine.
- sarchertech 1y ago
  The problem is that when the ADA was passed no one conceived that a change in culture would make it common for people to want to bring their dogs into restaurants and coffee shops. And now that it is common, there’s no political will to revisit this issue.
  - TulliusCicero 1y ago
    There's probably political will at the local or state level in some areas, but of course local and state laws can't override a federal one like the ADA.
    - sarchertech 1y ago
      That’s a very good point.
mgraczyk 1y ago
You can easily buy handicap placards online. It's actually pretty similar to the dog thing, mostly a way to get out of paying for parking
- sarchertech 1y ago
  But unlike the dog thing, using a fake handicapped placard is actually illegal, and if you’re caught doing it, in most states there are significant fines. Some states even have jail time for repeat offenders.
  - mgraczyk 1y ago
    I'm not talking about fake placards. You can get real ones online very easily via telehealth, or in person from many chiropractor or other sham providers
    - sarchertech 1y ago
      I don’t doubt that it happens, but most doctors and other qualified practitioners are hesitant to authorize placards without a valid reason (and in many cases they are hesitant even with a valid reason). Unlike signing a letter stating that someone needs an emotional support animal, there are real consequences for a doctor authorizing too many. The DMV in many states does actually investigate handicap parking fraud. In the states where chiropractors can authorize placards, they can and do lose their licenses for exaggerating or inventing conditions. If you read up on it, it’s not as easy as you might think—especially if you want more than a temporary 6 month placard. There are scores of people complaining about how it took them a decade or longer to get one.
kayodelycaon 1y ago
An interesting note is a service dog is basically medical equipment. They override any other disability. Including people with unfortunate combination of severe asthma and dog allergy. If you have an employee who has been previously sent to a hospital due to a customer’s service dog, you need to figure out a solution because you’re not allowed to ban the dog. And you’re not allowed to fire the employee because they have a medical condition.
- taeric 1y ago
  This feels susp. Do you have case law showing this to be the case? Because you don't get a free pass with "medical equipment" in any other situation. You don't even get a free pass with "medication" in situations. Quite the contrary, there are some where you are explicitly told not to do things if you are on the medication.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - kayodelycaon 1y ago
    > Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. When a person who is allergic to dog dander and a person who uses a service animal must spend time in the same room or facility, for example, in a school classroom or at a homeless shelter, they both should be accommodated by assigning them, if possible, to different locations within the room or different rooms in the facility. https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/ https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requireme... There is far more to it than this. I did extensive research on service dogs and emotional support animals in 2015 when I was on staff of a convention. I’m also very familiar with ADA due to my own disability. For example, off-hours support is not a considered an essential part of writing software, so you can’t enforce “you broke it, you support it” policies on people with work hour restrictions. Some people get really worked up about that.
    - taeric 1y ago

sarchertech 1y ago

30 or 40 years ago it was much more common for people to have outside dogs in the US. But it was also common to tie dogs up for long periods of time, which in most places will get you fined these days.

jjmarr 1y ago

Most countries do not mandate accessibility in public accomodations to the extent the United States does. Since the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act, any disabled person can sue a business and get statutory penalties for a lack of accomodation. Wrongfully denying a service dog can cost tens of thousands of dollars. Europe doesn't have this mechanism. There's less abuse of accomodations as a result. But nothing is wheelchair accessible.