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It seems like no more than a year ago the prevailing narrative was problems with higher education and science: how predatory and insidious the student loan indu

It seems like no more than a year ago the prevailing narrative was problems with higher education and science: how predatory and insidious the student loan industry is, and how it traps people in a cycle of debt with special treatment from the government to not let them escape; the replication crisis revealing just how deeply flawed the incentives in science are, and how safeguards like peer review have failed to stop the slide. And yet now that there's money at stake - not the money of those drowning in student loans, but those who benefit from the system - people come out of the woodwork to wax lyrical about the majesty of academia, championing its defense at all costs. Curious.

tech_ken 1y ago
Many things are both flawed and worth of preservation.
- shayway 1y ago
  Science as a principle is beautiful and valuable, and is entirely worthy of preservation. The industry surrounding it, less so. They are not inseparable. The latter has proven a poor steward of the former, and it's the latter that's under threat right now. It's not a question of 'yes science' or 'no science', but whether the current version of it is truly a fitting use of the space it occupies.
  - tech_ken 1y ago
    I think they are way less separable than you do. Moreover, I would say that while the current stewardship has notable flaws they are far, far fewer and less grave than previous iterations. No iteration is worthy of the space it holds, but progress comes through honest introspection exactly like what has followed the replication crisis you described. Simply bulk-axing research grants that fail to properly kowtow to the current president’s political ideology is a much cruder tool, and one which seems unfit to really address the concerns you described in your original post.
ceejayoz 1y ago
As the apocryphal Churchill quote goes, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." The same may be true for science.
cs_throwaway 1y ago
> It seems like no more than a year ago the prevailing narrative was problems with higher education and science: how predatory and insidious the student loan industry is, and how it traps people in a cycle of debt with special treatment from the government to not let them escape; the replication crisis revealing just how deeply flawed the incentives in science are, and how safeguards like peer review have failed to stop the slide. All that is true, and fewer people should be pushed into pointless colleges. ACM SIGOPS/SIGARCH does not represent that. This is a group of people doing fundamental work on computing systems, microprocessors, etc. They are largely at very technical schools, and lamenting that they won't be able to pay for PhD students -- who do not take loans, debt, etc. (CS PhD students are paid well enough and have amazing post-PhD/dropout-PhD opportunities. Happy to have that argument.)
- Ekaros 1y ago
  Why is industry not properly paying for this work they are exploiting? They make up majority of the most valuable companies on market. Surely they have the money to pay for this work. Which I guess is often relatively cheaper than their average employees...

tech_ken 1y ago

Many things are both flawed and worth of preservation.

shayway 1y ago
Science as a principle is beautiful and valuable, and is entirely worthy of preservation. The industry surrounding it, less so. They are not inseparable. The latter has proven a poor steward of the former, and it's the latter that's under threat right now. It's not a question of 'yes science' or 'no science', but whether the current version of it is truly a fitting use of the space it occupies.
- tech_ken 1y ago
  I think they are way less separable than you do. Moreover, I would say that while the current stewardship has notable flaws they are far, far fewer and less grave than previous iterations. No iteration is worthy of the space it holds, but progress comes through honest introspection exactly like what has followed the replication crisis you described. Simply bulk-axing research grants that fail to properly kowtow to the current president’s political ideology is a much cruder tool, and one which seems unfit to really address the concerns you described in your original post.

ceejayoz 1y ago

As the apocryphal Churchill quote goes, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." The same may be true for science.

cs_throwaway 1y ago

> It seems like no more than a year ago the prevailing narrative was problems with higher education and science: how predatory and insidious the student loan industry is, and how it traps people in a cycle of debt with special treatment from the government to not let them escape; the replication crisis revealing just how deeply flawed the incentives in science are, and how safeguards like peer review have failed to stop the slide. All that is true, and fewer people should be pushed into pointless colleges. ACM SIGOPS/SIGARCH does not represent that. This is a group of people doing fundamental work on computing systems, microprocessors, etc. They are largely at very technical schools, and lamenting that they won't be able to pay for PhD students -- who do not take loans, debt, etc. (CS PhD students are paid well enough and have amazing post-PhD/dropout-PhD opportunities. Happy to have that argument.)

Ekaros 1y ago
Why is industry not properly paying for this work they are exploiting? They make up majority of the most valuable companies on market. Surely they have the money to pay for this work. Which I guess is often relatively cheaper than their average employees...