6 ms·

So you gave the easy solution. What's the hard solution? Honestly, the pervasiveness of LLMs looks to really erode the critical thinking of entire future gener

So you gave the easy solution. What's the hard solution? Honestly, the pervasiveness of LLMs looks to really erode the critical thinking of entire future generations. Whatever the solution, we need to be taking these existential threats a lot more seriously than how we treated social media (the plague before this current plague).

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
koakuma-chan 1y ago
Don't forget to ban calculators
- rescripting 1y ago
  Calculators _are_ banned when students are learning basic arithmetic. They are only allowed once students can do it on their own, because now you have a foundational understanding and the tool just speeds you up.
- SecretDreams 1y ago
  If we don't get AI correctly regulated, future gens will probably not be able to work a calculator. Calculator producers will then go out of business - so no need to ban 'em. Thanks for the insightful comment!
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  Yes, every single math class I've ever had in my life - primary or second education - banned calculators or (in engineering) required us to perform a full memory reset in front of the TA. Using a machine to do the very thing you are supposed to be demonstrating a proficiency in is cheating and harms the legitimacy of the accreditation of the school.
futureshock 1y ago
I think the hard solution is to massively increase expectations. Think Star Trek where the grade schoolers are learning quantum mechanics. If everyone has access to the oracle of all human knowledge, then you should teach and test to the maximum of what a student could do with all that power. Find the frontier where the AI fails and the human adds value and teach there.
- spacemadness 1y ago
  So many on here keep saying stuff like this but it seems to just ignore any theory of learning. “Just make it harder”. Sure, any examples of how that’d work? “Quantum physics.” OK then, problem solved. That isn’t really explaining anything about how this should work.
  - SecretDreams 1y ago
    Yes.. but quantum physics does sound pretty great for my kids to learn!
    - spacemadness 1y ago
      “Sounds pretty great“ isn’t getting us any further on this.
- SAI_Peregrinus 1y ago
  Learning requires both reasoning and knowledge. Grade schoolers almost universally lack the ability to reason needed to understand QM, simply having access to the information isn't enough to learn the subject.
b112 1y ago
Indeed. I suspect this is the true fermi paradox. Once a civilization reaches a certain point, automation becomes harmful to the point that no one knows how do anything on their own. Societal collapse may be back to bronze age, if not more regressed.
- pbronez 1y ago
  You don't need AI for this. So much individual productivity depends on the civilization-level platform. Even when you decide to bootstrap stuff and do it from scratch, you're still operating in an environment deeply shaped by the billions of other people around and before you. Classic illustration of this: https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-project/ https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-project/
theptip 1y ago
> What's the hard solution? Ask students to solve harder problems, assuming they will use AI to learn more effectively. Invert the examination process to include teaching others, which you can’t fake. Or rework it to bring the viva voce into evaluation earlier than PhD. There are plenty of ideas. The problem is, a generation of teachers likely need to be cycled through for this to really work. Much harder for tenured professors. Every technical revolution “threatened to erode the critical thinking of a generation”, and sure, the printing press meant that fewer texts were memorized rote… not to say there are no risks this time, but rather that it’s hard to predict in advance. I can easily imagine access to personalized tutors making education much better for those who want/need to learn something. I’m more worried about post-truth civilization than post-college writing civilization for sure.
- SecretDreams 1y ago
  > Every technical revolution “threatened to erode the critical thinking of a generation” Objectively, many of them did erode some amount of critical thinking, but led to skill transfer to other domains so maybe it was neutral. Some of them were productivity boons and we got the golden age that boomers hail from. Other revolutions have just been a straight degradation in QOL. Social Media and LLMs seem to be in that vein. I'd also throw in gambling ads/micro-transactions and smoking as things that haven't exactly helped society. Out of those four examples, we only tried to course correct on smoking and, after a long period of time, we can see it's a net benefit to not smoke. > I’m more worried about post-truth civilization than post-college writing civilization for sure. These are the same civilizations on the same timeline.
  - theptip 1y ago
    > LLMs seem to be in that vein My opinion is that even if capabilities halted now, LLMs would be more economically valuable than the internet (compared over the same 50 year trajectory). And I predict that they will not halt any time soon. Maybe this yields more resources to invest in education like the OP author, and we end up more enriched than ever before: > I teach at a small liberal-arts college, and I often joke that a student is more likely to hand in a big paper a year late (as recently happened) than to take a dishonorable shortcut. My classes are small and intimate, driven by processes and pedagogical modes, like letting awkward silences linger, that are difficult to scale. The only thing I’m confident about is volatility, the range of outcomes is wide.
javiramos 1y ago
the pervasiveness of LLMs looks to really erode the critical thinking of entire future generations Exactly the threat of AI. With regards to jobs, we'll have a shock but we will adapt as with any other wave of automation.
csa 1y ago
> Honestly, the pervasiveness of LLMs looks to really erode the critical thinking of entire future generations. Yes and no. Upper middle class parents as a group will still instill critical thinking skills in their kids. But the above comment reveals more about SES (socioeconomic status) and education in general rather than something specific to critical thinking or LLMs. The current education environment in the US heavily favors kids from higher SES families for a number of reason. LLMs won’t change this. The challenge for the education system, imho, is to find a way for lower SES kids to thrive in an LLM environment. Pre-LLM, this was already a challenge, but was possible. Post-LLM, the LLM crutch may be too easy for some lower SES folks to lean on such that they don’t develop the skills they need to develop higher order skills.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

koakuma-chan 1y ago

Don't forget to ban calculators

rescripting 1y ago
Calculators _are_ banned when students are learning basic arithmetic. They are only allowed once students can do it on their own, because now you have a foundational understanding and the tool just speeds you up.
SecretDreams 1y ago
If we don't get AI correctly regulated, future gens will probably not be able to work a calculator. Calculator producers will then go out of business - so no need to ban 'em. Thanks for the insightful comment!
Tadpole9181 1y ago
Yes, every single math class I've ever had in my life - primary or second education - banned calculators or (in engineering) required us to perform a full memory reset in front of the TA. Using a machine to do the very thing you are supposed to be demonstrating a proficiency in is cheating and harms the legitimacy of the accreditation of the school.

futureshock 1y ago

I think the hard solution is to massively increase expectations. Think Star Trek where the grade schoolers are learning quantum mechanics. If everyone has access to the oracle of all human knowledge, then you should teach and test to the maximum of what a student could do with all that power. Find the frontier where the AI fails and the human adds value and teach there.

spacemadness 1y ago
So many on here keep saying stuff like this but it seems to just ignore any theory of learning. “Just make it harder”. Sure, any examples of how that’d work? “Quantum physics.” OK then, problem solved. That isn’t really explaining anything about how this should work.
- SecretDreams 1y ago
  Yes.. but quantum physics does sound pretty great for my kids to learn!
  - spacemadness 1y ago
    “Sounds pretty great“ isn’t getting us any further on this.
SAI_Peregrinus 1y ago
Learning requires both reasoning and knowledge. Grade schoolers almost universally lack the ability to reason needed to understand QM, simply having access to the information isn't enough to learn the subject.

b112 1y ago

Indeed. I suspect this is the true fermi paradox. Once a civilization reaches a certain point, automation becomes harmful to the point that no one knows how do anything on their own. Societal collapse may be back to bronze age, if not more regressed.

pbronez 1y ago
You don't need AI for this. So much individual productivity depends on the civilization-level platform. Even when you decide to bootstrap stuff and do it from scratch, you're still operating in an environment deeply shaped by the billions of other people around and before you. Classic illustration of this: https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-project/ https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-project/

theptip 1y ago

> What's the hard solution? Ask students to solve harder problems, assuming they will use AI to learn more effectively. Invert the examination process to include teaching others, which you can’t fake. Or rework it to bring the viva voce into evaluation earlier than PhD. There are plenty of ideas. The problem is, a generation of teachers likely need to be cycled through for this to really work. Much harder for tenured professors. Every technical revolution “threatened to erode the critical thinking of a generation”, and sure, the printing press meant that fewer texts were memorized rote… not to say there are no risks this time, but rather that it’s hard to predict in advance. I can easily imagine access to personalized tutors making education much better for those who want/need to learn something. I’m more worried about post-truth civilization than post-college writing civilization for sure.

SecretDreams 1y ago
> Every technical revolution “threatened to erode the critical thinking of a generation” Objectively, many of them did erode some amount of critical thinking, but led to skill transfer to other domains so maybe it was neutral. Some of them were productivity boons and we got the golden age that boomers hail from. Other revolutions have just been a straight degradation in QOL. Social Media and LLMs seem to be in that vein. I'd also throw in gambling ads/micro-transactions and smoking as things that haven't exactly helped society. Out of those four examples, we only tried to course correct on smoking and, after a long period of time, we can see it's a net benefit to not smoke. > I’m more worried about post-truth civilization than post-college writing civilization for sure. These are the same civilizations on the same timeline.
- theptip 1y ago
  > LLMs seem to be in that vein My opinion is that even if capabilities halted now, LLMs would be more economically valuable than the internet (compared over the same 50 year trajectory). And I predict that they will not halt any time soon. Maybe this yields more resources to invest in education like the OP author, and we end up more enriched than ever before: > I teach at a small liberal-arts college, and I often joke that a student is more likely to hand in a big paper a year late (as recently happened) than to take a dishonorable shortcut. My classes are small and intimate, driven by processes and pedagogical modes, like letting awkward silences linger, that are difficult to scale. The only thing I’m confident about is volatility, the range of outcomes is wide.

javiramos 1y ago

the pervasiveness of LLMs looks to really erode the critical thinking of entire future generations Exactly the threat of AI. With regards to jobs, we'll have a shock but we will adapt as with any other wave of automation.

csa 1y ago

> Honestly, the pervasiveness of LLMs looks to really erode the critical thinking of entire future generations. Yes and no. Upper middle class parents as a group will still instill critical thinking skills in their kids. But the above comment reveals more about SES (socioeconomic status) and education in general rather than something specific to critical thinking or LLMs. The current education environment in the US heavily favors kids from higher SES families for a number of reason. LLMs won’t change this. The challenge for the education system, imho, is to find a way for lower SES kids to thrive in an LLM environment. Pre-LLM, this was already a challenge, but was possible. Post-LLM, the LLM crutch may be too easy for some lower SES folks to lean on such that they don’t develop the skills they need to develop higher order skills.