6 ms·

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 200

by csomar 1y ago

> - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.

mberning 1y ago
You are 100% correct. I was a senior in college and my beater died. I went to the Mazda dealer and talked them down to $13k on a brand new Mazda3. My payment was like $280. Now inflation adjusted that is supposedly just shy of $22k. But it’s not the full story. That car was actually very nice for the time and to get an equivalently nice car today it’s not going to be a bare bones Nissan Versa or something like that.
- jjice 1y ago
  To share an anecdote on the more recent side of the spectrum, I bought a new 2025 Toyota Corolla LE two months ago. It's probably the cheapest vehicle Toyota makes. My cost before tax and title (not sure if that should be included or not) was $23k. It's a pretty great car. Highway averages like 45-50 MPH (25-35 city), it's comfortable, has Car Play, and everything else you'd expect in a car now. I'll say that the two things I'm used to having in a car that this one doesn't (since it's such a base trim) is automatic seat adjustment (not a big deal, I kind of prefer it since the automatic seats on my last vehicle died) and no remote start. All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea.
  - csomar 1y ago
    I think the problem here is that we are comparing against price inflation (not salary inflation). If every company increased its prices, then that's the inflation. Customers will feel ripped off if their salaries didn't at least match inflation. In other words, if your salary in 2005 was $50k when Mazda was $13k; then your salary should be $82k for a $22k Mazda3 to be the same price. Currently, a Mazda3 starts at $24k and will probably run at $26-27k: https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan > All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea. Kind of. But my understanding is that most salaries haven't caught up to inflation especially in the last few years when the US economy had the worst inflation.
    - TimPC 1y ago
      Salary inflation is much trickier to measure because it is confounded by years of experience increasing, getting promotions, etc. The distribution of the working population by seniority also changes over time so it's not self-correcting across the distribution. Assuming you have a good way of measuring it, (salary inflation/price inflation) would be an interesting Financial Quality of Life measure.
      - alephnerd 1y ago
        You can use real median household income [0] and real median personal income [1] to gauge potential salary inflation (real meaning CPI adjusted). The median American household and American has gotten significantly richer than in 2005, but in the 2020-23 period, income growth slowed due to the pandemic and the subsequent slow restart of the economy. The last time we saw similar retractions were during recessions like the 1990-93 recession, the Dot Com Bust, and the Great Recession. Turns out the "vibe check" in the early 2020s were right. Tl;dr - the median American feels poorer in the early 2020s than they did in 2019, but they have much more earning power than they ever did before 2018. I would not be surprised if this played an outsized role in voter dynamics in the 2024 election [0] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N [1] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
        mitthrowaway2 1y ago
        (Just an aside that median household income will of course be affected by the changing composition of households towards multi income families.)
        alephnerd 1y ago
        Hence why I also provided personal income, but both data points show a significant correlation between dual-income households since the 1980s, so that is a moot point. Also, as at this point 1980 is 45 years ago - almost 2 generations, almost like using the 1960s as a frame of reference in 2005. At this point we've been a country of dual earners in a household for 2 generations now. It's best to assume that is the default given the overlap.
mb7733 1y ago
> I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). A base model Ford Ranger would have done it!
- LanceH 1y ago
  The ford ranger is so much bigger and expensive now.
wsc981 1y ago
In 2024 Toyota in Thailand introduced a cheap pick-up that is a bit under 15.000 USD when THB is converted to USD. I think it's rather neat - the basic model is /very/ basic, but lots of options to customize. https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial_car https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial...
- rockostrich 1y ago
  This doesn't really have anything to do with the US though. Importing that vehicle is not possible for another 24 years and USD$15k goes a lot farther in southeast Asia than it does in the US. For the past half century there has been a plethora of cheap pick-up trucks available in Asia and that has not carried over to the US.
- monkeyelite 1y ago
  Part of the cost of cars in America is regulatory compliance.
  - SecretDreams 1y ago
    Other parts include import taxes, local wages vs outsourced wages, and margins.
- knowaveragejoe 1y ago
  Why can't we get these in the US? This kind of simple utilitarian vehicle is exactly what I'm looking for.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    Toyota uses a separate platform called IMV [0] in developing countries that doesn't meet safety standards in EU, Canada, Japan, the US, or the UK. A lot of safety features such as around crumple zones or even airbags (in the case of the Toyota Champ) don't exist in the IMV platform. Australia allows them (excluding the Champ), but they watered down their car safety standards in order to seal FTAs with ASEAN (2009), China (2015), and India (2022), leading to the last Australian automotive factory shutting down in 2017. Once you start adding those safety features (and build the associated testing infra), costs end up comparable to those in Central Europe - as can be seen with the domestic and international prices of Western-oriented export models from China (Zeekr X/Volvo XC30) or India (Toyota Hyryder/Toyota Urban Cruiser). [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_IMV_platform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_IMV_platform
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
bunderbunder 1y ago
Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars That said, we picked up one of the cars on this list for well under $15,000 in 2010. (And it's still going strong! Never needed a major repair.) Which doesn't really mean anything, just throwing out yet another anecdote to highlight that nobody's presented any information that actually supports or contradicts the major premise that cars are getting less affordable. Segmenting your data by picking arbitrary cutoffs (like $25,000) has its own chapter in the classic book How to Lie With Statistics.
- conductr 1y ago
  Everything that has increased by more than income growth has gotten less affordable. Thankfully it seems to be happening to all the most expensive things housing, vehicles, education, healthcare, etc (/s incase not obvious)
- csomar 1y ago
  > Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars I need a source for the year 2005 not 2025. Of course, it is easier to have a source for 2025.
  - tlogan 1y ago
    Here is 2005 list: - Chevrolet Aveo – Starting at $9,455 - Kia Rio – Starting at $10,570 - Hyundai Accent – Starting at $10,999 - Toyota Echo – Starting at $11,110 - Ford Focus ZX3 – Starting at $13,365 - Chevrolet Cavalier – Starting at $13,405 - Chrysler PT Cruiser – Starting at $13,995 - Dodge Neon SXT – Starting at $14,195 - Pontiac Sunfire – Starting at $14,200 see: https://www.kbb.com/pontiac/sunfire/2005 https://www.kbb.com/pontiac/sunfire/2005 -Saturn Ion – Starting at $14,430 - see https://www.kbb.com/saturn/ion/2005 https://www.kbb.com/saturn/ion/2005 It is based on this links: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-cars-under-15000.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-cars-under... This is article from 2005 (at least metadata says that). The prices are verified via kbb.com which has original MSRP for all used cars.
burnerthrow008 1y ago
Your memory is different to mine, and different to Motor Trend's, as well: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2005 https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2005 $15k would buy you a base-trim 2005 Corolla with an automatic or one level up with a manual. In 2025, you can buy the LE or SE trim Corolla for under $25k, either of which are vastly better cars than the 2005 in any dimension you wish to measure. Safety, technology, comfort, performance. All improved.
margalabargala 1y ago
The person you replied to found a "top 10 cars under $15k" list and thought that that was all the under-15k cars of 2005. You are correct.

by csomar 1y ago

mberning 1y ago

You are 100% correct. I was a senior in college and my beater died. I went to the Mazda dealer and talked them down to $13k on a brand new Mazda3. My payment was like $280. Now inflation adjusted that is supposedly just shy of $22k. But it’s not the full story. That car was actually very nice for the time and to get an equivalently nice car today it’s not going to be a bare bones Nissan Versa or something like that.

jjice 1y ago
To share an anecdote on the more recent side of the spectrum, I bought a new 2025 Toyota Corolla LE two months ago. It's probably the cheapest vehicle Toyota makes. My cost before tax and title (not sure if that should be included or not) was $23k. It's a pretty great car. Highway averages like 45-50 MPH (25-35 city), it's comfortable, has Car Play, and everything else you'd expect in a car now. I'll say that the two things I'm used to having in a car that this one doesn't (since it's such a base trim) is automatic seat adjustment (not a big deal, I kind of prefer it since the automatic seats on my last vehicle died) and no remote start. All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea.
- csomar 1y ago
  I think the problem here is that we are comparing against price inflation (not salary inflation). If every company increased its prices, then that's the inflation. Customers will feel ripped off if their salaries didn't at least match inflation. In other words, if your salary in 2005 was $50k when Mazda was $13k; then your salary should be $82k for a $22k Mazda3 to be the same price. Currently, a Mazda3 starts at $24k and will probably run at $26-27k: https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan > All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea. Kind of. But my understanding is that most salaries haven't caught up to inflation especially in the last few years when the US economy had the worst inflation.
  - TimPC 1y ago
    Salary inflation is much trickier to measure because it is confounded by years of experience increasing, getting promotions, etc. The distribution of the working population by seniority also changes over time so it's not self-correcting across the distribution. Assuming you have a good way of measuring it, (salary inflation/price inflation) would be an interesting Financial Quality of Life measure.
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      You can use real median household income [0] and real median personal income [1] to gauge potential salary inflation (real meaning CPI adjusted). The median American household and American has gotten significantly richer than in 2005, but in the 2020-23 period, income growth slowed due to the pandemic and the subsequent slow restart of the economy. The last time we saw similar retractions were during recessions like the 1990-93 recession, the Dot Com Bust, and the Great Recession. Turns out the "vibe check" in the early 2020s were right. Tl;dr - the median American feels poorer in the early 2020s than they did in 2019, but they have much more earning power than they ever did before 2018. I would not be surprised if this played an outsized role in voter dynamics in the 2024 election [0] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N [1] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
      - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
        (Just an aside that median household income will of course be affected by the changing composition of households towards multi income families.)
        alephnerd 1y ago
        Hence why I also provided personal income, but both data points show a significant correlation between dual-income households since the 1980s, so that is a moot point. Also, as at this point 1980 is 45 years ago - almost 2 generations, almost like using the 1960s as a frame of reference in 2005. At this point we've been a country of dual earners in a household for 2 generations now. It's best to assume that is the default given the overlap.

mb7733 1y ago

> I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). A base model Ford Ranger would have done it!

LanceH 1y ago
The ford ranger is so much bigger and expensive now.

wsc981 1y ago

In 2024 Toyota in Thailand introduced a cheap pick-up that is a bit under 15.000 USD when THB is converted to USD. I think it's rather neat - the basic model is /very/ basic, but lots of options to customize. https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial_car https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial...

rockostrich 1y ago
This doesn't really have anything to do with the US though. Importing that vehicle is not possible for another 24 years and USD$15k goes a lot farther in southeast Asia than it does in the US. For the past half century there has been a plethora of cheap pick-up trucks available in Asia and that has not carried over to the US.
monkeyelite 1y ago
Part of the cost of cars in America is regulatory compliance.
- SecretDreams 1y ago
  Other parts include import taxes, local wages vs outsourced wages, and margins.
knowaveragejoe 1y ago
Why can't we get these in the US? This kind of simple utilitarian vehicle is exactly what I'm looking for.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  Toyota uses a separate platform called IMV [0] in developing countries that doesn't meet safety standards in EU, Canada, Japan, the US, or the UK. A lot of safety features such as around crumple zones or even airbags (in the case of the Toyota Champ) don't exist in the IMV platform. Australia allows them (excluding the Champ), but they watered down their car safety standards in order to seal FTAs with ASEAN (2009), China (2015), and India (2022), leading to the last Australian automotive factory shutting down in 2017. Once you start adding those safety features (and build the associated testing infra), costs end up comparable to those in Central Europe - as can be seen with the domestic and international prices of Western-oriented export models from China (Zeekr X/Volvo XC30) or India (Toyota Hyryder/Toyota Urban Cruiser). [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_IMV_platform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_IMV_platform

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

bunderbunder 1y ago

Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars That said, we picked up one of the cars on this list for well under $15,000 in 2010. (And it's still going strong! Never needed a major repair.) Which doesn't really mean anything, just throwing out yet another anecdote to highlight that nobody's presented any information that actually supports or contradicts the major premise that cars are getting less affordable. Segmenting your data by picking arbitrary cutoffs (like $25,000) has its own chapter in the classic book How to Lie With Statistics.

conductr 1y ago
Everything that has increased by more than income growth has gotten less affordable. Thankfully it seems to be happening to all the most expensive things housing, vehicles, education, healthcare, etc (/s incase not obvious)
csomar 1y ago
> Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars I need a source for the year 2005 not 2025. Of course, it is easier to have a source for 2025.
- tlogan 1y ago
  Here is 2005 list: - Chevrolet Aveo – Starting at $9,455 - Kia Rio – Starting at $10,570 - Hyundai Accent – Starting at $10,999 - Toyota Echo – Starting at $11,110 - Ford Focus ZX3 – Starting at $13,365 - Chevrolet Cavalier – Starting at $13,405 - Chrysler PT Cruiser – Starting at $13,995 - Dodge Neon SXT – Starting at $14,195 - Pontiac Sunfire – Starting at $14,200 see: https://www.kbb.com/pontiac/sunfire/2005 https://www.kbb.com/pontiac/sunfire/2005 -Saturn Ion – Starting at $14,430 - see https://www.kbb.com/saturn/ion/2005 https://www.kbb.com/saturn/ion/2005 It is based on this links: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-cars-under-15000.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-cars-under... This is article from 2005 (at least metadata says that). The prices are verified via kbb.com which has original MSRP for all used cars.

burnerthrow008 1y ago

Your memory is different to mine, and different to Motor Trend's, as well: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2005 https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2005 $15k would buy you a base-trim 2005 Corolla with an automatic or one level up with a manual. In 2025, you can buy the LE or SE trim Corolla for under $25k, either of which are vastly better cars than the 2005 in any dimension you wish to measure. Safety, technology, comfort, performance. All improved.

margalabargala 1y ago

The person you replied to found a "top 10 cars under $15k" list and thought that that was all the under-15k cars of 2005. You are correct.