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But it’s well below the minimum sustainable level due to Chinese government subsidies.
by mattmaroon 1y ago
But it’s well below the minimum sustainable level due to Chinese government subsidies.
- LastTrain 1y agoWait until you hear about US federal and state automaker subsidies!
- reliabilityguy 1y agoCan you provide some information on this, please?
- infecto 1y agoState level tax subsidies. Federal, things like a the chicken tax which imposes import taxes in categories like small trucks. Easy top of mind ones.
- mattmaroon 1y agoThe former doesn’t exist in any meaningful sense and the latter is not a subsidy, it’s a tariff. It doesn’t make American cars cheaper elsewhere, it makes foreign cars more expensive here. Other nations aren’t at risk of losing their auto industries domestically because of either.
- infecto 1y agoThe former does exist in a meaningful sense unless you want to provide evidence to the contrary? Lots of opinion zero facts.
- mattmaroon 1y agoNo evidence was provided for the assertion to begin with, why must the contrary provide evidence but not the base assertion? You provided an opinion with no facts and then criticized me for doing the same. But the evidence is other countries aren’t complaining that Ohio offering tax credits to get a a Ford plant to go there instead of Pennsylvania is gutting their automotive industry. Which is exactly the issue we’re discussing. Any such tax credits are simply American states competing against other American states, and have little to no ramification on the overall cost of an automobile, even domestically, let alone globally. Meanwhile, China is doing loads of very well documented things that would make the automotive industry impossible for anyone outside of China if not for protectionist policies. Many other countries (basically any that make automobiles) are instituting tariffs as a result.
- infecto 1y agoI am the original person already claiming that China plays games. Amazing how threads twist. Fair enough—China’s not losing sleep over whether Ford picks Ohio or Pennsylvania. But that doesn’t change the fact that state-level tax breaks are still subsidies. Public money influencing private decisions is the definition, whether it’s across borders or state lines. And just to be clear, I never said they were globally material—you did. I asked for evidence on your claim that they don’t exist in any meaningful sense and leave an equally unbacked claim as you did. Funny how that upsets you so much.
- reliabilityguy 1y agoTariff is lot a subsidy! lol Tariffs on trucks ensured that there is a substantial number of manufacturers here in the US. So, can you provide any info on the subsidies?
- infecto 1y agoYou’re right, tariffs aren’t subsidies. They just function like one by kneecapping foreign competition so domestic automakers can overcharge with a straight face. Actual subsidies? -Federal: ATVM loans (e.g., Tesla, Ford), $7.5K EV tax credits. -State: Georgia gave Rivian $1.5B. Tennessee handed VW ~$500M. Michigan’s tossed cash at GM like it’s confetti. So yeah, no subsidies at all, just billions in “non-subsidy” market distortion to keep the hometown heroes afloat. So, can you provide any substance to the conversation?
- LastTrain 1y agoAn example is the section 179 tax break for cars over 6000 pounds - the one your roofing contractor used for her F250 or your real estate agent used for his Suburban.
- NickC25 1y agoAnd that's a bad thing? A country's government sees an opportunity to invest into a promising new technology that could reap tremendous economic benefits. Such benefits include new jobs, new income, the ability to increase social/political capital worldwide, and help usher in a world that is that much less reliant on oil. That's what countries in the first world are supposed to do.
- infecto 1y agoChina historically does it in a way where they orchestrate cartel like behavior and will dump inventory on the market at low prices to kill off international competition. Some of it is altruistic but not all of it.
- NickC25 1y agoThat's the geopolitical advantage of being the world's manufacturing hub. Foresight is required when dealing with such entities, not hindsight. If my electric car comes in at 1/4th the price of an American built one, so be it. The tradeoff here is that in countries that aren't engulfed by rent-seeking capitalists who only answer to themselves, countries like China have a policy goal and will make sure the state utilizes the private sector to meet the goal. For example, Mr. Musk could easily take some of that $450 billion net worth of his and make his cars considerably cheaper. He has taken enormous subsidies and kept his cars expensive. In China, the state would not let someone with that amount of capital take subsidies, and most certainly wouldn't allow them to bribe the government with the government's money.