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> I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger auto

> I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger automobiles with everything that entails, notably much less stringent emission standards) and made the small cars unprofitable to make in comparison. This has become the irrelevant part because "does it have an electric motor in the powertrain" has become more important to fuel economy than vehicle size. There are hybrid SUVs that get better MPG than non-hybrid sedans, to say nothing of the full electric ones. Which is another reason the average price is increasing. Hybrids have a lower TCO even though they have a higher initial purchase price. People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. But then the market for lower priced new cars declines, because the people who can afford a new car can afford to pay a little extra for long-term savings and most of the people who can't afford to do that were buying used to begin with.

Ray20 1y ago
>People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. Can they? In long term maintainability decides. And hybrids usually has it with maintainability pretty bad. Large area of potential breaking, expansive spare parts usually with strong vendor-lock. Hybrids are very costly in maintainability, even if you are privileged elite that buys hybrid and in two years resell it and buy brand new car, even then hybrids looses comparatively big percent of its original cost. So people that buys hybrids, usually CAN NOT do the math.
- smeej 1y ago
  I thought the Toyota Prius had been winning lowest TCO contests since it came out. I'm still driving my '07, and yeah, it's finally time to look at replacing it, but it's 18 years old and has almost a quarter million miles on it. Maintaining it hasn't been noticeably more expensive than, say, the older Civics I drove before it.
- Retric 1y ago
  That’s not been my experience. Hybrids have several major advantages on the maintenance side. Regenerative braking means brakes need to be replaced far less often and keeping the engine off so frequently means it gets far less ware in city driving. Electric motors outlast the vehicle, and significant battery degradation only results in slightly worse fuel economy.
- kayodelycaon 1y ago
  Toyota hybrids are much cheaper to maintain. - No engine belts - No starter - No alternator - No transmission(1) - No torque converter - No turbochargers - Regenerative braking can significantly reduce brake pad wear Edit: - AWD is an electric motor on the rear axle. No driveshaft or transfer case required. As long as you drive it regularly and keep up with scheduled maintenance, you don't have to do anything for well over 100,000 miles. Replacing the traction battery after 10~15 years is cheaper than the additional maintenance required for regular cars. 1: Yes, it has an “e-CVT”. Which is just a set of fixed planetary gears. All “shifting” is done through varying the power output of two electric motor-generators.
  - bumby 1y ago
    CVTs are generally less reliable than traditional transmissions, especially under heavy loads. You get better mpg in exchange. You don’t have an alternator, but you have a much more expensive electric motor. You don’t have a turbocharger, but in exchange you lose performance at highway speeds. So like most engineering problems, it’s all about tradeoffs.
    - yabones 1y ago
      The e-CVT is _not_ a typical belt driven CVT like the crap Nissan puts in everything. It's better known as a Power-Split-Device. https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
    - kube-system 1y ago
      Despite the name, "eCVT"s are mechanically unrelated to the CVTs used in gasoline cars. They are mechanically similar to a differential, and have extremely low failure rates.
      - bumby 1y ago
        Thanks for clarifying! It does seem like the planetary design would be more reliable (but the point able heavy loads may still apply)
- yabones 1y ago
  The Toyota hybrid system has basically no wear items. There are no clutches, belts, or delicate hydraulic systems. The whole thing is made with big hardened steel ring gears and two electric motors. There are taxis in Vancouver with over a million KM clocked with nothing other than fluid changes and brakes/suspension. https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
- kube-system 1y ago
  There are a handful of significantly different hybrid designs. Some of the early designs were in fact just electric drivetrains slapped on to existing gasoline drivetrains, and were more complicated than their gasoline counterparts. But most of the designs that are more popular today are not that. Many of them eliminate some of the most problematic parts on gasoline cars and replace them with solid state components.
bumby 1y ago
>Hybrids have a lower TCO even though they have a higher initial purchase price. Is this conclusion based just on fuel consumption? From a relatability standpoint, it doesn’t make sense at first blush because you have to have both ICE and EV parts in series in the drivetrain; the total reliability can’t be higher than the individual components of they’re in series.
- vel0city 1y ago
  Depending on the drive trains being compared, the hybrid drivetrain may be overall mechanically simpler than an ICE. A series hybrid can easily have fewer moving parts, fewer friction spots, less reliance on fluid motion through little channels, etc. And then you're also keeping the moving parts more in their happy zone of temperature, speed, and load instead of needing them to operate in as wide of conditions.
  - bumby 1y ago
    Could you elaborate further? A hybrid, by definition, combines an ICE and electric drivetrain. While I understand it could be designed for a more efficient range of operation* how could it negate the downsides of an ICE-only design if it requires an ICE? (Are we conflating EV and hybrid?) * This also means each segment is less globally efficient, meaning the system is less efficient if it has to limp along if one part is inoperable
    - vel0city 1y ago
      The pure ICE transmission is probably far more mechanically complicated than the transmission of a series hybrid. The pure ICE engine and transmission has to deal with some of the most stressful times the motor can handle, extremely high torque demands coming from a stop. Its far less stressful for an electric motor to generate good torque at such low RPMs. Just two quick examples.
      - bumby 1y ago
        I think you’re still conflating EVs and hybrids. A hybrid has an ICE that is distinct from the mechanical transmission. Hybrids tend to run off the ICE at high speeds because it’s more efficient and use the ICE to charge the battery.
Spooky23 1y ago
Only if you keep them for a long time. Most people drive around 15k miles, the gas difference ends up to about $2500/yr. If you drive a lot, different story.
- enragedcacti 1y ago
  The Corolla hybrid is only $1500 more than the base model and gets 50MPG combined vs 35MPG. The break even for 15k miles/year is 2.5-4.3 years given the highest and lowest US prices as of today (California@$4.59, Texas@$2.70).
  - Spooky23 1y ago
    Not really. Toyota dealers are filth. The ones around here were trying to sell my neice one for $5000 over sticker as a “market adjustment”. It’s better in other regions, but you couldn’t pay me to buy a Toyota.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> Hybrids have a lower TCO not sure about this; hybrids require maintaining both an ICE and a electric motor/battery The Prius may be an exception but that model has been around for a very long time. A lot depends on gas prices, of course.

Ray20 1y ago

>People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. Can they? In long term maintainability decides. And hybrids usually has it with maintainability pretty bad. Large area of potential breaking, expansive spare parts usually with strong vendor-lock. Hybrids are very costly in maintainability, even if you are privileged elite that buys hybrid and in two years resell it and buy brand new car, even then hybrids looses comparatively big percent of its original cost. So people that buys hybrids, usually CAN NOT do the math.

smeej 1y ago
I thought the Toyota Prius had been winning lowest TCO contests since it came out. I'm still driving my '07, and yeah, it's finally time to look at replacing it, but it's 18 years old and has almost a quarter million miles on it. Maintaining it hasn't been noticeably more expensive than, say, the older Civics I drove before it.
Retric 1y ago
That’s not been my experience. Hybrids have several major advantages on the maintenance side. Regenerative braking means brakes need to be replaced far less often and keeping the engine off so frequently means it gets far less ware in city driving. Electric motors outlast the vehicle, and significant battery degradation only results in slightly worse fuel economy.
kayodelycaon 1y ago
Toyota hybrids are much cheaper to maintain. - No engine belts - No starter - No alternator - No transmission(1) - No torque converter - No turbochargers - Regenerative braking can significantly reduce brake pad wear Edit: - AWD is an electric motor on the rear axle. No driveshaft or transfer case required. As long as you drive it regularly and keep up with scheduled maintenance, you don't have to do anything for well over 100,000 miles. Replacing the traction battery after 10~15 years is cheaper than the additional maintenance required for regular cars. 1: Yes, it has an “e-CVT”. Which is just a set of fixed planetary gears. All “shifting” is done through varying the power output of two electric motor-generators.
- bumby 1y ago
  CVTs are generally less reliable than traditional transmissions, especially under heavy loads. You get better mpg in exchange. You don’t have an alternator, but you have a much more expensive electric motor. You don’t have a turbocharger, but in exchange you lose performance at highway speeds. So like most engineering problems, it’s all about tradeoffs.
  - yabones 1y ago
    The e-CVT is _not_ a typical belt driven CVT like the crap Nissan puts in everything. It's better known as a Power-Split-Device. https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
  - kube-system 1y ago
    Despite the name, "eCVT"s are mechanically unrelated to the CVTs used in gasoline cars. They are mechanically similar to a differential, and have extremely low failure rates.
    - bumby 1y ago
      Thanks for clarifying! It does seem like the planetary design would be more reliable (but the point able heavy loads may still apply)
yabones 1y ago
The Toyota hybrid system has basically no wear items. There are no clutches, belts, or delicate hydraulic systems. The whole thing is made with big hardened steel ring gears and two electric motors. There are taxis in Vancouver with over a million KM clocked with nothing other than fluid changes and brakes/suspension. https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
kube-system 1y ago
There are a handful of significantly different hybrid designs. Some of the early designs were in fact just electric drivetrains slapped on to existing gasoline drivetrains, and were more complicated than their gasoline counterparts. But most of the designs that are more popular today are not that. Many of them eliminate some of the most problematic parts on gasoline cars and replace them with solid state components.

bumby 1y ago

>Hybrids have a lower TCO even though they have a higher initial purchase price. Is this conclusion based just on fuel consumption? From a relatability standpoint, it doesn’t make sense at first blush because you have to have both ICE and EV parts in series in the drivetrain; the total reliability can’t be higher than the individual components of they’re in series.

vel0city 1y ago
Depending on the drive trains being compared, the hybrid drivetrain may be overall mechanically simpler than an ICE. A series hybrid can easily have fewer moving parts, fewer friction spots, less reliance on fluid motion through little channels, etc. And then you're also keeping the moving parts more in their happy zone of temperature, speed, and load instead of needing them to operate in as wide of conditions.
- bumby 1y ago
  Could you elaborate further? A hybrid, by definition, combines an ICE and electric drivetrain. While I understand it could be designed for a more efficient range of operation* how could it negate the downsides of an ICE-only design if it requires an ICE? (Are we conflating EV and hybrid?) * This also means each segment is less globally efficient, meaning the system is less efficient if it has to limp along if one part is inoperable
  - vel0city 1y ago
    The pure ICE transmission is probably far more mechanically complicated than the transmission of a series hybrid. The pure ICE engine and transmission has to deal with some of the most stressful times the motor can handle, extremely high torque demands coming from a stop. Its far less stressful for an electric motor to generate good torque at such low RPMs. Just two quick examples.
    - bumby 1y ago
      I think you’re still conflating EVs and hybrids. A hybrid has an ICE that is distinct from the mechanical transmission. Hybrids tend to run off the ICE at high speeds because it’s more efficient and use the ICE to charge the battery.

Spooky23 1y ago

Only if you keep them for a long time. Most people drive around 15k miles, the gas difference ends up to about $2500/yr. If you drive a lot, different story.

enragedcacti 1y ago
The Corolla hybrid is only $1500 more than the base model and gets 50MPG combined vs 35MPG. The break even for 15k miles/year is 2.5-4.3 years given the highest and lowest US prices as of today (California@$4.59, Texas@$2.70).
- Spooky23 1y ago
  Not really. Toyota dealers are filth. The ones around here were trying to sell my neice one for $5000 over sticker as a “market adjustment”. It’s better in other regions, but you couldn’t pay me to buy a Toyota.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

> Hybrids have a lower TCO not sure about this; hybrids require maintaining both an ICE and a electric motor/battery The Prius may be an exception but that model has been around for a very long time. A lot depends on gas prices, of course.