4 ms·

> I discovered that a bunch of things I thought were reasonably healthy actually caused huge glycemic spikes -- e.g., white bread in the morning, croissants, dr

> I discovered that a bunch of things I thought were reasonably healthy actually caused huge glycemic spikes -- e.g., white bread in the morning, croissants, dried mangos, excessive amount of fruits, etc. I wonder if this amounts to optimization of an easy-to-measure and reasonably-looking but incorrect metric, much like the previous "common sense" wave of "fat makes you fat" that led several generations into a dead end. You assume above that glycemic spikes are unhealthy which I think was never proven for the general population. Eating too much sugar or eating too much in general is bad, but I'm not aware of evidence that croissants kill you if you eat reasonably. Another thing to note: one of the potential suspects in the obesity epidemic is HFCS, and fructose doesn't actually cause glycemic spikes. If this turns out to be true, then parallels with the "fat makes you fat" theory become uncannily strong. I tend to think this could be the case because it matches my personal observations. I moved to France a few years ago and the amount of croissants I and people around me consume is at the stereotypes level. My weight is stable but each time I go to US for a couple of weeks I bring back 3-5 extra kilos. Something is seriously different between the food here and there, and I don't think it's glycemic spikes per se.

bboygravity 1y ago
The difference is corn syrup (in everything) vs sugar from sugar beets. Corn syrup has way more calories por unit sweetness.
- aw1621107 1y ago
  > Corn syrup has way more calories por unit sweetness. I'm not so sure about that? IIRC fructose is sweeter than sucrose and fructose concentrations aren't that much lower than in sucrose (fructose/glucose ratios of 42/58, 55/45, and 65/35 seem to be common from a quick search, comapred to 50/50 for sucrose). In addition the USDA also says fructose has fewer calories per gram than sucrose, which would also point towards HFCS having fewer calories per unit sweetness. Both those would seem to point towards HFCS having fewer calories per unit sweetness, not "way more".
andrewflnr 1y ago
I only casually follow these things, but my understanding is that interest in glycemic spikes is not really about obesity or fat at all, but more about diabetes-related issues, insulin resistance I think.
- mathgeek 1y ago
  There's a popular subculture moment happening where non-diabetic folks are tracking their glucose since it's now possible to do without great expense. Similar to recent trends with step counters, heart rate monitors, etc. The necessity of tracking for diabetics has led to the opportunity for others.
Etheryte 1y ago
Large glycemic spikes are are an issue, but the problem is not obesity. Obesity is concerned with calories in and calories out and our current obesity epidemic is largely attributed to the fact that we eat more calories and move less. Most other discussion points are secondary to that fact. Glycemic spikes on the other hand are linked to increased insulin resistance, heightened risk of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and so on. The two are linked, but not the same problem.
- alexey-salmin 1y ago
  > Glycemic spikes on the other hand are linked to increased insulin resistance, heightened risk of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and so on. How exactly are they linked? Is it the size of the spike, the length, the frequency? Does it matter at all if you don't overeat? What evidence exists to support it? For instance, the plain white rice causes a huge glycemic spike but somehow it's the US facing both obesity and type-2 diabetes wave, not Vietnam. I agree that linking glycemic spikes with insulin resistance is "logical" but without hard evidence it's worthless and it doesn't seem to agree with the reality I see.
  - Etheryte 1y ago
    The risks related to glycemic spikes are a widely accepted fact in the medical community, it's not even remotely close to being a controversial opinion. See [0], [1] and [2] for a start, but really, there's a very wide body of research on this matter along with ample evidence. [0] https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-020-01085-6 https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-02... [1] https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/38/12/2354/29088/Long-term-Glycemic-Variability-and-Risk-of-Adverse https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/38/12/2354/29088/L... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561424000566 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026156142...
    - alexey-salmin 1y ago
      No, not really. There's an established correlation between glycemic spikes and health risks which the papers you reference confirm. But correlation is not causation, and I haven't seen any evidence that reducing spikes have positive long-term consequences for general population (not diabetics). Would be interesting to see a controlled test if it ever happened. In the absence of data my guess is that glycemic spikes simply share common root causes with health risks: overeating, junk food etc. I say this because there's plenty of meals like white rice that cause glycemic spikes but not the health issues. And at the same time e.g fructose has low GI but seems to be linked to obesity and type 2 diabetes. In the same way sunglasses correlate with sweating but removing the sunglasses won't make you sweat any less.
WesolyKubeczek 1y ago
> much like the previous "common sense" wave of "fat makes you fat" that led several generations into a dead end. Fat does make you fat, in the sense that most of the fat in the body does come from dietary fat, but the mechanisms of this are way more nuanced than popular brochures back from "red meat kills" era would lead you to believe. Insulin itself doesn't singularly make you fat either, despite "bro science", again, there's more nuance. CICO works, but again, there's nuance to that too. > My weight is stable but each time I go to US for a couple of weeks I bring back 3-5 extra kilos. One thing I noticed immediately was that the bread in the US was very uncomfortably sweet, so much so that I'd put it into "pastries" category. Bought a loaf of "farmer's bread" at Trader Joe's, and while maybe not "pastry sweet", it was still in the dessert territory. Why does it take so much sugar to bake ordinary bread? I blame imperial units :-)
phil21 1y ago
Glycemic spikes makes me hungry after the spike. This indirectly caused my obesity, among other factors of course. It was a loop of eat something that spiked my glucose, be super hungry 40 minutes later on the drop, spike it again. Repeat. Eating in a manner that didn’t cause the spikes, or at least minimized them helped tremendously with my appetite and satiety - thus being able to more successfully manage CICO. It’s not the end-all, but it’s the number one thing I’ve found to optimize for in order to maintain a healthy calorie intake. If I’m extra careful in what I eat to avoid the spikes it’s actually somewhat difficult to eat enough to gain weight much less maintain it coupled with moderate exercise.
nickfromseattle 1y ago
> My weight is stable but each time I go to US for a couple of weeks I bring back 3-5 extra kilos I live in Spain and visit the US yearly, here are my thoughts: A) "Being on vacation" and eating / drinking a bit more loosely than I do at home. B) Significant reduction in walking. In Spain I average 60 minutes/day on the low end, and often at 90-120 minutes/day. In the USA, it's maybe 30 minutes.

bboygravity 1y ago

The difference is corn syrup (in everything) vs sugar from sugar beets. Corn syrup has way more calories por unit sweetness.

aw1621107 1y ago
> Corn syrup has way more calories por unit sweetness. I'm not so sure about that? IIRC fructose is sweeter than sucrose and fructose concentrations aren't that much lower than in sucrose (fructose/glucose ratios of 42/58, 55/45, and 65/35 seem to be common from a quick search, comapred to 50/50 for sucrose). In addition the USDA also says fructose has fewer calories per gram than sucrose, which would also point towards HFCS having fewer calories per unit sweetness. Both those would seem to point towards HFCS having fewer calories per unit sweetness, not "way more".

andrewflnr 1y ago

I only casually follow these things, but my understanding is that interest in glycemic spikes is not really about obesity or fat at all, but more about diabetes-related issues, insulin resistance I think.

mathgeek 1y ago
There's a popular subculture moment happening where non-diabetic folks are tracking their glucose since it's now possible to do without great expense. Similar to recent trends with step counters, heart rate monitors, etc. The necessity of tracking for diabetics has led to the opportunity for others.

Etheryte 1y ago

Large glycemic spikes are are an issue, but the problem is not obesity. Obesity is concerned with calories in and calories out and our current obesity epidemic is largely attributed to the fact that we eat more calories and move less. Most other discussion points are secondary to that fact. Glycemic spikes on the other hand are linked to increased insulin resistance, heightened risk of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and so on. The two are linked, but not the same problem.

alexey-salmin 1y ago
> Glycemic spikes on the other hand are linked to increased insulin resistance, heightened risk of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and so on. How exactly are they linked? Is it the size of the spike, the length, the frequency? Does it matter at all if you don't overeat? What evidence exists to support it? For instance, the plain white rice causes a huge glycemic spike but somehow it's the US facing both obesity and type-2 diabetes wave, not Vietnam. I agree that linking glycemic spikes with insulin resistance is "logical" but without hard evidence it's worthless and it doesn't seem to agree with the reality I see.
- Etheryte 1y ago
  The risks related to glycemic spikes are a widely accepted fact in the medical community, it's not even remotely close to being a controversial opinion. See [0], [1] and [2] for a start, but really, there's a very wide body of research on this matter along with ample evidence. [0] https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-020-01085-6 https://cardiab.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12933-02... [1] https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/38/12/2354/29088/Long-term-Glycemic-Variability-and-Risk-of-Adverse https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/38/12/2354/29088/L... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261561424000566 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026156142...
  - alexey-salmin 1y ago
    No, not really. There's an established correlation between glycemic spikes and health risks which the papers you reference confirm. But correlation is not causation, and I haven't seen any evidence that reducing spikes have positive long-term consequences for general population (not diabetics). Would be interesting to see a controlled test if it ever happened. In the absence of data my guess is that glycemic spikes simply share common root causes with health risks: overeating, junk food etc. I say this because there's plenty of meals like white rice that cause glycemic spikes but not the health issues. And at the same time e.g fructose has low GI but seems to be linked to obesity and type 2 diabetes. In the same way sunglasses correlate with sweating but removing the sunglasses won't make you sweat any less.

WesolyKubeczek 1y ago

> much like the previous "common sense" wave of "fat makes you fat" that led several generations into a dead end. Fat does make you fat, in the sense that most of the fat in the body does come from dietary fat, but the mechanisms of this are way more nuanced than popular brochures back from "red meat kills" era would lead you to believe. Insulin itself doesn't singularly make you fat either, despite "bro science", again, there's more nuance. CICO works, but again, there's nuance to that too. > My weight is stable but each time I go to US for a couple of weeks I bring back 3-5 extra kilos. One thing I noticed immediately was that the bread in the US was very uncomfortably sweet, so much so that I'd put it into "pastries" category. Bought a loaf of "farmer's bread" at Trader Joe's, and while maybe not "pastry sweet", it was still in the dessert territory. Why does it take so much sugar to bake ordinary bread? I blame imperial units :-)

phil21 1y ago

Glycemic spikes makes me hungry after the spike. This indirectly caused my obesity, among other factors of course. It was a loop of eat something that spiked my glucose, be super hungry 40 minutes later on the drop, spike it again. Repeat. Eating in a manner that didn’t cause the spikes, or at least minimized them helped tremendously with my appetite and satiety - thus being able to more successfully manage CICO. It’s not the end-all, but it’s the number one thing I’ve found to optimize for in order to maintain a healthy calorie intake. If I’m extra careful in what I eat to avoid the spikes it’s actually somewhat difficult to eat enough to gain weight much less maintain it coupled with moderate exercise.

nickfromseattle 1y ago

> My weight is stable but each time I go to US for a couple of weeks I bring back 3-5 extra kilos I live in Spain and visit the US yearly, here are my thoughts: A) "Being on vacation" and eating / drinking a bit more loosely than I do at home. B) Significant reduction in walking. In Spain I average 60 minutes/day on the low end, and often at 90-120 minutes/day. In the USA, it's maybe 30 minutes.