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I largely agree with you, but I think one of Apple’s secret sauces (and they aren’t the only one) is that while their products are to some marketed as luxury it

I largely agree with you, but I think one of Apple’s secret sauces (and they aren’t the only one) is that while their products are to some marketed as luxury items, they are in fact coupled with extremely high utility which is a somewhat new concept, in my view. The iPhone or your equivalent Android device truly is one of the most useful inventions humanity has ever created, especially for the era that we currently exist in.

msgodel 1y ago
Smartphone hardware is almost completely useless because of the software. At this point it's pretty obvious that the potential (but unrealizable) utility is just more of the luxury illusion they're selling.
- zxexz 1y ago
  I’m genuinely curious what your view on the unrealized potential is! I would love something new to hack on.
  - msgodel 1y ago
    It's a social problem not a technical one.
    - leakycap 1y ago
      I think it is the lack of a non-touch keyboard, not a social problem. I have an Android phone with a physical keyboard and it is a totally different mindset when you can "check in" and communicate with the device/through the device without constantly checking/fixing the touchscreen/dictation errors.
    - HaZeust 1y ago
      Great! The fun thing about social problems is that you, yourself, can make routines and picky-preferences in life to avoid most of them for yourself! You could start today by taking away HackerNews from your routine - as well as other platforms and sites that perpetuate behaviors that meet your criticisms. If you do, you'll find that you'll stop feeling the need to project your scorn for the things you voluntarily surround yourself with!
      - msgodel 1y ago
        Yeah I actually don't own a smartphone at all. I don't know why you think I shouldn't talk about them after making that decision though.
        HaZeust 1y ago
        Well, with that in mind, have you noticed the problems you speak about going down in life? Was I right about the core of what a social problem is - and how it can be fixed? You're 100% correct to talk about your criticisms still, but you read as if it was still a problem in your everyday life, so I gave a suggestion more apt to that scenario. It didn't translate well, I apologize!
- rekenaut 1y ago
  In my pocket, I have a wallet, timer, alarm clock, calculator, telephone, atlas, directory, camera, stock broker, flashlight, tape measure, television, music collection, encyclopedia, transit time table, library, notepad, and translator. How are these utilities an illusion?
  - msgodel 1y ago
    The few among those things that even reliably function are covered in ads and defects to the degree that you're better off without them. The illusion is that you're getting a computer and not a collection of knickknacks and appliances.
    - Gigachad 1y ago
      Almost none of those things have ads on the iPhone. All of them function reliably.
      - worthless-trash 1y ago
        I mean, you're getting advertisements in your iWallet.. so...
        Gigachad 1y ago
        I'm not as that was US only but yes that was outrageous and hopefully never happens again.
      - bacon_waffle 1y ago
        I regularly notice bugs when using iOS Mail; one that springs to mind would display one email's body with the header info from another email, it seems to have recently been fixed but was easily reproducible for weeks if not months.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
      > covered in ads and defects to the degree that you're better off without them Someone is deluded, and it's either all of the people using these apps despite being worse off due to doing so... or it's you. (And we're talking about actual utility apps, not something that you could dismiss as a dopamine trap.)
rekenaut 1y ago
Outside of urban centers, the only other device that is similarly valuable is a car, but the average American new car purchase costs 65 times the average American new phone purchase. While there is obviously a lot of nuance here, this makes phones feel downright cheap (or conversely, cars downright expensive) compared to imparted value.
- eigen 1y ago
  > the average American new car purchase costs 65 times the average American new phone purchase and you keep a phone 1-8 years but a car 3-20 years or 4x as long? seems like a bad ratio
thaumasiotes 1y ago
> while their products are to some marketed as luxury items, they are in fact coupled with extremely high utility which is a somewhat new concept, in my view. Well, a Rolex has extremely high utility too. It's just that it has much less utility than a digital watch you can buy for $23 from Casio. The purpose of spending the other $59,477 [ https://www.rolex.com/en-us/watches/sky-dweller/m336935-0008 https://www.rolex.com/en-us/watches/sky-dweller/m336935-0008 ] is just that you can say you did. Apple products are similar. They have high utility that is nevertheless not as high as competing products that are much cheaper. All of the value is coming from the luxury branding.
- jwagenet 1y ago
  I don’t agree at all. Neither is Rolex high utility, nor is anyone fooled that an analog watch which sets you back 3-4 orders of magnitude more than digital/smart watches should be higher utility. Products competing directly with Apple products offer, at best, equivalent utility and performance for no more than 1 magnitude cost difference. Flagship android phones have cost about the same as iPhones for the better part of a decade and macbooks are often price competitive with a similarly specced ultra books. It’s understood that cheaper phones and laptops have similar utility for the average user, but some aspect of performance or quality is often a tradeoff.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    Rolex is not high utility, it is harsh environment. Real Antarctic expeditions, mountaineering, pre-GPS flight and navigation, SCUBA diving, sea navigation, desert navigation, etc. You could rely on your Rolex not to be the component that fails and gets you killed or lost. Of course, like the SUV, often it's actual use case is a far cry from what it is actually capable of doing.
    - hx8 1y ago
      Except mechanical watches fail all the time. The sapphire glass shatters, or a strong impact disrupts the movement, or a user doesn't screw down the crown and water enters the device. They require expensive regular services. Rolex has a long history of being a tool watch, and mechanical watches can be used in a lot of neat ways, but I would never want to depend on one in a life or death situation without fully understanding a backup plan.

msgodel 1y ago

Smartphone hardware is almost completely useless because of the software. At this point it's pretty obvious that the potential (but unrealizable) utility is just more of the luxury illusion they're selling.

zxexz 1y ago
I’m genuinely curious what your view on the unrealized potential is! I would love something new to hack on.
- msgodel 1y ago
  It's a social problem not a technical one.
  - leakycap 1y ago
    I think it is the lack of a non-touch keyboard, not a social problem. I have an Android phone with a physical keyboard and it is a totally different mindset when you can "check in" and communicate with the device/through the device without constantly checking/fixing the touchscreen/dictation errors.
  - HaZeust 1y ago
    Great! The fun thing about social problems is that you, yourself, can make routines and picky-preferences in life to avoid most of them for yourself! You could start today by taking away HackerNews from your routine - as well as other platforms and sites that perpetuate behaviors that meet your criticisms. If you do, you'll find that you'll stop feeling the need to project your scorn for the things you voluntarily surround yourself with!
    - msgodel 1y ago
      Yeah I actually don't own a smartphone at all. I don't know why you think I shouldn't talk about them after making that decision though.
      - HaZeust 1y ago
        Well, with that in mind, have you noticed the problems you speak about going down in life? Was I right about the core of what a social problem is - and how it can be fixed? You're 100% correct to talk about your criticisms still, but you read as if it was still a problem in your everyday life, so I gave a suggestion more apt to that scenario. It didn't translate well, I apologize!
rekenaut 1y ago
In my pocket, I have a wallet, timer, alarm clock, calculator, telephone, atlas, directory, camera, stock broker, flashlight, tape measure, television, music collection, encyclopedia, transit time table, library, notepad, and translator. How are these utilities an illusion?
- msgodel 1y ago
  The few among those things that even reliably function are covered in ads and defects to the degree that you're better off without them. The illusion is that you're getting a computer and not a collection of knickknacks and appliances.
  - Gigachad 1y ago
    Almost none of those things have ads on the iPhone. All of them function reliably.
    - worthless-trash 1y ago
      I mean, you're getting advertisements in your iWallet.. so...
      - Gigachad 1y ago
        I'm not as that was US only but yes that was outrageous and hopefully never happens again.
    - bacon_waffle 1y ago
      I regularly notice bugs when using iOS Mail; one that springs to mind would display one email's body with the header info from another email, it seems to have recently been fixed but was easily reproducible for weeks if not months.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
    > covered in ads and defects to the degree that you're better off without them Someone is deluded, and it's either all of the people using these apps despite being worse off due to doing so... or it's you. (And we're talking about actual utility apps, not something that you could dismiss as a dopamine trap.)

rekenaut 1y ago

Outside of urban centers, the only other device that is similarly valuable is a car, but the average American new car purchase costs 65 times the average American new phone purchase. While there is obviously a lot of nuance here, this makes phones feel downright cheap (or conversely, cars downright expensive) compared to imparted value.

eigen 1y ago
> the average American new car purchase costs 65 times the average American new phone purchase and you keep a phone 1-8 years but a car 3-20 years or 4x as long? seems like a bad ratio

thaumasiotes 1y ago

> while their products are to some marketed as luxury items, they are in fact coupled with extremely high utility which is a somewhat new concept, in my view. Well, a Rolex has extremely high utility too. It's just that it has much less utility than a digital watch you can buy for $23 from Casio. The purpose of spending the other $59,477 [ https://www.rolex.com/en-us/watches/sky-dweller/m336935-0008 https://www.rolex.com/en-us/watches/sky-dweller/m336935-0008 ] is just that you can say you did. Apple products are similar. They have high utility that is nevertheless not as high as competing products that are much cheaper. All of the value is coming from the luxury branding.

jwagenet 1y ago
I don’t agree at all. Neither is Rolex high utility, nor is anyone fooled that an analog watch which sets you back 3-4 orders of magnitude more than digital/smart watches should be higher utility. Products competing directly with Apple products offer, at best, equivalent utility and performance for no more than 1 magnitude cost difference. Flagship android phones have cost about the same as iPhones for the better part of a decade and macbooks are often price competitive with a similarly specced ultra books. It’s understood that cheaper phones and laptops have similar utility for the average user, but some aspect of performance or quality is often a tradeoff.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  Rolex is not high utility, it is harsh environment. Real Antarctic expeditions, mountaineering, pre-GPS flight and navigation, SCUBA diving, sea navigation, desert navigation, etc. You could rely on your Rolex not to be the component that fails and gets you killed or lost. Of course, like the SUV, often it's actual use case is a far cry from what it is actually capable of doing.
  - hx8 1y ago
    Except mechanical watches fail all the time. The sapphire glass shatters, or a strong impact disrupts the movement, or a user doesn't screw down the crown and water enters the device. They require expensive regular services. Rolex has a long history of being a tool watch, and mechanical watches can be used in a lot of neat ways, but I would never want to depend on one in a life or death situation without fully understanding a backup plan.