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Some might think why have the females in a physically exhausting endurance effort? In a canoe, females lower center of gravity helps tremendously. And for many

Some might think why have the females in a physically exhausting endurance effort? In a canoe, females lower center of gravity helps tremendously. And for many hours of continuous paddling, often males will have mental break down before the females. The Texas Water Safari is an endurance canoe race starting in San Marcos, similar to this crossing with regards to duration, effort required. The winning boat this year had two females. Ask any racer in that comparator, they will agree with regards to the anatomy and mental differences with regards to men and women.

rob_c 1y ago
I'm not denying your chosen cherry picked example, but at what level is that biased by looking to support an argument? Most triathlons are probably won by men and global exploratory voyages were first accomplished by men... Not saying your wrong I'm asking what I'm missing?
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  > global exploratory voyages were first accomplished by men... This assumption seems strange. How do you think polynesians spread without both men and women? If you're referring to the european age of exploration, they weren't rowing much at that point, rendering sex mostly irrelevant.
  - rob_c 1y ago
    Ok I'll add the word solo which I interpreted based on prior comment but was context lost. But my question stands.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    once they get there they go back and return with women would be a reasonable guess. All a guess though as AFAIK we have no idea why they left or who was on the initial trips, only that eventually they made it
    - MangoToupe 1y ago
      > once they get there they go back and return with women would be a reasonable guess. Off-hand this seems like it'd require twice the time, resources, and risk. Without some strong theory as to why an all-male boat would be particularly useful (but not necessary on the return trip), occam's razor suggests to me that this is a much less likely theory. FWIW, the oral history does indicate both men and women were part of at least the initial settling of new zealand by polynesians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe. Even if this is entirely mythical, it does speak to the cultural understanding of settling.
      - bluGill 1y ago
        The all male boat sounds like 'young men' going on an adventure (possibly solo, possibly as a right of passage). They were not settlers, just exploring because it is fun. When they for whatever reason decide to leave with family they know where to go and what is needed. we of course wouldn't have exidence if that happened as cultures change. Whatever caused a desire to settle would change culture.
abeppu 1y ago
The actual article from the researchers discusses their choices: > The boat was paddled by a mixed team consisting of four men (paddlers) and one woman (steerer), without replacement by other paddlers on the way. The inclusion of both men and women is essential because our focus is ancient migration, not men’s adventure. An unstable, round-bottomed dugout required skilled paddlers to control it on the open sea. Furthermore, because this type of boat does not travel in a straight direction but instead snakes its way, the skill of the steerer is crucial for optimizing its performance. Considering these factors, we invited professional and semi-professional sea kayakers as the paddlers and steerer. And ... this wasn't a race? Perhaps 5 women could have gotten there faster, but speed wasn't the primary goal. I don't know anything about paddle sports specifically, but I have seen a discussion about sex differences in performance in other endurance sports, and one important distinction is that women as a group can have average pace times that are faster than men as a group, even when most of the outright winners are men. https://archive.is/5nx7X#selection-4259.0-4259.255 https://archive.is/5nx7X#selection-4259.0-4259.255 https://trainright.com/women-faster-than-men-ultramarathon/ https://trainright.com/women-faster-than-men-ultramarathon/
- lostlogin 1y ago
  If you look at longer distances, women seem to perform better than men. Ultra endurance sports is where you see this. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/30/the-longer-the-race-the-closer-it-gets-women-are-closing-in-on-men-in-the-ultra-endurance-arena https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/30/the-lon...
  - abeppu 1y ago
    That's literally not what that soecific article says: > While men still hold the edge, women’s rapid progress suggests a future where they may outperform men in extreme endurance events.
  - yzydserd 1y ago
    This claim, and study which underpins the claims, was covered on the BBC More or Less Podcast last year. One of the main problems with the stat is that in ultramarathons there are very few women, but those that do enter are typically professional ultra-athletes, not "have a go" females. Whereas the field contains many "have a go" men who are less professional and less fit than the professional ultra-athlete men. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hg2764 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hg2764 (9 minute episode).
stevenwoo 1y ago
From the article - it would have been a one way trip to seafarers 30000 years ago (without the thorough mapping of the strong currents prevalent between Japan and the two hypothesized origins available to the scientists now). There was no round trip. Women had to make that voyage 30000 years ago to make human settlement viable.

rob_c 1y ago

I'm not denying your chosen cherry picked example, but at what level is that biased by looking to support an argument? Most triathlons are probably won by men and global exploratory voyages were first accomplished by men... Not saying your wrong I'm asking what I'm missing?

MangoToupe 1y ago
> global exploratory voyages were first accomplished by men... This assumption seems strange. How do you think polynesians spread without both men and women? If you're referring to the european age of exploration, they weren't rowing much at that point, rendering sex mostly irrelevant.
- rob_c 1y ago
  Ok I'll add the word solo which I interpreted based on prior comment but was context lost. But my question stands.
- bluGill 1y ago
  once they get there they go back and return with women would be a reasonable guess. All a guess though as AFAIK we have no idea why they left or who was on the initial trips, only that eventually they made it
  - MangoToupe 1y ago
    > once they get there they go back and return with women would be a reasonable guess. Off-hand this seems like it'd require twice the time, resources, and risk. Without some strong theory as to why an all-male boat would be particularly useful (but not necessary on the return trip), occam's razor suggests to me that this is a much less likely theory. FWIW, the oral history does indicate both men and women were part of at least the initial settling of new zealand by polynesians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe. Even if this is entirely mythical, it does speak to the cultural understanding of settling.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      The all male boat sounds like 'young men' going on an adventure (possibly solo, possibly as a right of passage). They were not settlers, just exploring because it is fun. When they for whatever reason decide to leave with family they know where to go and what is needed. we of course wouldn't have exidence if that happened as cultures change. Whatever caused a desire to settle would change culture.

abeppu 1y ago

The actual article from the researchers discusses their choices: > The boat was paddled by a mixed team consisting of four men (paddlers) and one woman (steerer), without replacement by other paddlers on the way. The inclusion of both men and women is essential because our focus is ancient migration, not men’s adventure. An unstable, round-bottomed dugout required skilled paddlers to control it on the open sea. Furthermore, because this type of boat does not travel in a straight direction but instead snakes its way, the skill of the steerer is crucial for optimizing its performance. Considering these factors, we invited professional and semi-professional sea kayakers as the paddlers and steerer. And ... this wasn't a race? Perhaps 5 women could have gotten there faster, but speed wasn't the primary goal. I don't know anything about paddle sports specifically, but I have seen a discussion about sex differences in performance in other endurance sports, and one important distinction is that women as a group can have average pace times that are faster than men as a group, even when most of the outright winners are men. https://archive.is/5nx7X#selection-4259.0-4259.255 https://archive.is/5nx7X#selection-4259.0-4259.255 https://trainright.com/women-faster-than-men-ultramarathon/ https://trainright.com/women-faster-than-men-ultramarathon/

lostlogin 1y ago
If you look at longer distances, women seem to perform better than men. Ultra endurance sports is where you see this. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/30/the-longer-the-race-the-closer-it-gets-women-are-closing-in-on-men-in-the-ultra-endurance-arena https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/30/the-lon...
- abeppu 1y ago
  That's literally not what that soecific article says: > While men still hold the edge, women’s rapid progress suggests a future where they may outperform men in extreme endurance events.
- yzydserd 1y ago
  This claim, and study which underpins the claims, was covered on the BBC More or Less Podcast last year. One of the main problems with the stat is that in ultramarathons there are very few women, but those that do enter are typically professional ultra-athletes, not "have a go" females. Whereas the field contains many "have a go" men who are less professional and less fit than the professional ultra-athlete men. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hg2764 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hg2764 (9 minute episode).

stevenwoo 1y ago

From the article - it would have been a one way trip to seafarers 30000 years ago (without the thorough mapping of the strong currents prevalent between Japan and the two hypothesized origins available to the scientists now). There was no round trip. Women had to make that voyage 30000 years ago to make human settlement viable.