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> at the very least they should be transfered into a role that doesn't involve coming up with good ideas, since obviously that is outside of their skill set. P

> at the very least they should be transfered into a role that doesn't involve coming up with good ideas, since obviously that is outside of their skill set. Proposing one bad idea is not unusual for people whose job is idea-driven. When ideas are the primary currency of your occupation, you'll necessarily generate some losers. But in a company of Apple's size, that's why you rely on colleagues and - critically - a more robust approval process to move from idea to deliverable. I hate your idea of firing (from org. or role) the idea person based on one bad idea. I don't hate the idea of firing (from org. or role) the leaders accountable for getting this idea into the world.

dijit 1y ago
Job security seems to hold higher esteem than prison. Social norms exist outside of criminal law, and a single extremely poor decision is reason enough for people to lose their freedom. Why shouldn’t it be possible for people to lose their jobs?
- TheBicPen 1y ago
  You're seriously comparing a single advertisement to crimes like murder? Crimes that land you in prison are generally crimes that even children can understand are wrong. You're using "extremely poor decision" for 2 wildly different things, and if you think they're remotely equivalent, perhaps you should reflect on why you think that.
  - dijit 1y ago
    I am seriously suggesting that a single bad decision (like taking some money from the cash register) can land you in prison, why do we hold jobs to a higher standard? Learning from our mistakes is one thing, slip ups happen after all, but I’m just drawing a comparison to “a single misjudgement”. If you don't know societies values (stealing is wrong) or a companies values (tarnishing the brand by looking cheap and desperate) the outcome should probably be the same: expulsion or exclusion. Also, don’t go to the most extreme negative interpretation of what someone says, it’s against guidelines.
    - paulcole 1y ago
      > the outcome should probably be the same Why exactly besides the fact that you like extreme solutions?
      - dijit 1y ago
        Because accountability? Either you’re suggesting jail is too punitive a punishment or that being fired should never be a viable option. I’m not saying we should jump to extremes, I’m saying that the option should be on the table if you violate the core principles of the company, especially in a way that causes loss of consumer trust. Whats the difference between defrauding Ford out of $200M and causing $200M in damages because I decided that every new Ford will include the word “I solemnly swear I will shit on the American flag when requested”? In essence, in either case I am putting my own needs above the needs of the company and above the needs of the consumer - in a way that undermines future sales for the company too.
- HelloMcFly 1y ago
  > Why shouldn’t it be possible for people to lose their jobs? This is a strawman argument that seems made in bad faith, but I'll bite anyway: I am not saying that no single bad idea or mistake should result in the loss of a job. I am saying that most of the time such a response would be an extreme reaction, especially when directed at the lower-level source of the ideas vs. the more senior accountable parties who are paid to know better. Magnitude matters, as does accountability. Creating this world of extremes where one mistake of poor idea leads to termination is a pretty quick way to a toxic and non-productive work environment. Enact accountability where it sits, not across the entire chain.
  - dijit 1y ago
    I think you and I are saying the same thing honestly. The parent seems to be of the mind that it's never a viable option for someone to lose their jobs for something; which I find an extreme position in itself. I'm not sure how this context is lost, as precisely this point is what I'm getting at. I'm not jumping to extremes as some imply (including you), I'm saying it should be on the table for the most hopeless egregious offences.

dijit 1y ago

Job security seems to hold higher esteem than prison. Social norms exist outside of criminal law, and a single extremely poor decision is reason enough for people to lose their freedom. Why shouldn’t it be possible for people to lose their jobs?

TheBicPen 1y ago
You're seriously comparing a single advertisement to crimes like murder? Crimes that land you in prison are generally crimes that even children can understand are wrong. You're using "extremely poor decision" for 2 wildly different things, and if you think they're remotely equivalent, perhaps you should reflect on why you think that.
- dijit 1y ago
  I am seriously suggesting that a single bad decision (like taking some money from the cash register) can land you in prison, why do we hold jobs to a higher standard? Learning from our mistakes is one thing, slip ups happen after all, but I’m just drawing a comparison to “a single misjudgement”. If you don't know societies values (stealing is wrong) or a companies values (tarnishing the brand by looking cheap and desperate) the outcome should probably be the same: expulsion or exclusion. Also, don’t go to the most extreme negative interpretation of what someone says, it’s against guidelines.
  - paulcole 1y ago
    > the outcome should probably be the same Why exactly besides the fact that you like extreme solutions?
    - dijit 1y ago
      Because accountability? Either you’re suggesting jail is too punitive a punishment or that being fired should never be a viable option. I’m not saying we should jump to extremes, I’m saying that the option should be on the table if you violate the core principles of the company, especially in a way that causes loss of consumer trust. Whats the difference between defrauding Ford out of $200M and causing $200M in damages because I decided that every new Ford will include the word “I solemnly swear I will shit on the American flag when requested”? In essence, in either case I am putting my own needs above the needs of the company and above the needs of the consumer - in a way that undermines future sales for the company too.
HelloMcFly 1y ago
> Why shouldn’t it be possible for people to lose their jobs? This is a strawman argument that seems made in bad faith, but I'll bite anyway: I am not saying that no single bad idea or mistake should result in the loss of a job. I am saying that most of the time such a response would be an extreme reaction, especially when directed at the lower-level source of the ideas vs. the more senior accountable parties who are paid to know better. Magnitude matters, as does accountability. Creating this world of extremes where one mistake of poor idea leads to termination is a pretty quick way to a toxic and non-productive work environment. Enact accountability where it sits, not across the entire chain.
- dijit 1y ago
  I think you and I are saying the same thing honestly. The parent seems to be of the mind that it's never a viable option for someone to lose their jobs for something; which I find an extreme position in itself. I'm not sure how this context is lost, as precisely this point is what I'm getting at. I'm not jumping to extremes as some imply (including you), I'm saying it should be on the table for the most hopeless egregious offences.