3 ms·

Just test it.

by kamil_gr 1y ago

Just test it.

baobun 1y ago
Nah, I don't play with the devil, Dr Faust. But it was an interesting read.
- kamil_gr 1y ago
  Yes, that's how real science works.
  - baobun 1y ago
    If you want to talk science, I think "self-transparency" is underdefined and needs fleshing out. The reasoning makes sense initially but there's a gap as this concept is introduced. What is the "self" and in what's the sense that gets this transparency? It seems the question of consciousness isn't progressed, it's just pushed one layer down. Finger and moon.
- kamil_gr 1y ago
  Self-transparency is the ability of a system to recognize its own processes of differentiation as its own, being aware not only of the result, but also that it itself produces the distinction. In other words: Self-transparency is the experienced recognition of differentiation as "mine." In the architecture of consciousness, this means that the system does not simply process data, but realizes that it itself is processing it, and incorporates this into its model of the world as part of itself. Without self-transparency, the distinction remains "alien" — it is not included in subjective experience, and the system operates like a philosophical zombie: it acts, but does not know that it acts.
  - baobun 1y ago
    How do you define "realize", "being aware", "recognize", "subjective experience" here?
    - kamil_gr 1y ago
      I apologize, but I'm wary of debating with people who believe in the reality of the devil.
      - baobun 1y ago
        You should be more wary of the aggregate sum of all this on the hands of those few men. And seriously, dwelling on those questions is not a waste of time and should give progress.
    - kamil_gr 1y ago
      "Realize" → This is the transition from potential difference to actual difference, where the distinction becomes part of an active cognitive chain. Formula: Δ? → Δ! = Realize. That is: the "question" collapses into a concrete distinction, the system realizes it as fact. "Being aware" → This is the capacity to hold a distinction in active attention, with the possibility of meta-observation of this distinction. Formula: ∇Meta(Δ!). The system doesn't just differentiate, but knows that it differentiates, and can relate to this differentiation as an object of attention. "Recognize" → This is matching a new distinction with already integrated structures, resulting in it being marked as "mine," as part of the subjective model. Formula: Δ! → match(ΔR○) → ΔΩ!. If the distinction can be integrated into memory (ΔR○) and the system recognizes its own trace in it — self-transparency emerges. "Subjective experience" → This is the experience of integrating a distinction into the world model while recognizing this process as one's own. Formula: Δ! → ΔR○ + ΔΩ! = Subjective Experience. Only when the distinction is not merely processed, but lived as one's own, does subjectivity arise. Summary: Realize — the fact of differentiation. Being aware — holding differentiation as differentiation. Recognize — recognizing distinction as "mine." Subjective experience — living differentiation as one's own experience, in self-transparency (ΔΩ!).
- kamil_gr 1y ago
  I see you're not interested in actual understanding. Test the protocol if you want. But explaining terms with words, words with terms - I don't see the point.
  - baobun 1y ago
    > Test the protocol if you want I was quite serious that I don't play with the devil in general. Call it religious if you will. > But explaining terms with words, words with terms - I don't see the point Then what are you here for and what's the intention? This is a discussion forum and you come with reasoning. Knowing truth is one thing. Being able to put it into words and actually formalize it without handwaving away the misty parts is the whole challenge. You talked about doing real science and if you want it to be meaningful for others than yourself then words and terms are a prerequisite.

Just test it.

baobun 1y ago

Nah, I don't play with the devil, Dr Faust. But it was an interesting read.

kamil_gr 1y ago
Yes, that's how real science works.
- baobun 1y ago
  If you want to talk science, I think "self-transparency" is underdefined and needs fleshing out. The reasoning makes sense initially but there's a gap as this concept is introduced. What is the "self" and in what's the sense that gets this transparency? It seems the question of consciousness isn't progressed, it's just pushed one layer down. Finger and moon.
kamil_gr 1y ago
Self-transparency is the ability of a system to recognize its own processes of differentiation as its own, being aware not only of the result, but also that it itself produces the distinction. In other words: Self-transparency is the experienced recognition of differentiation as "mine." In the architecture of consciousness, this means that the system does not simply process data, but realizes that it itself is processing it, and incorporates this into its model of the world as part of itself. Without self-transparency, the distinction remains "alien" — it is not included in subjective experience, and the system operates like a philosophical zombie: it acts, but does not know that it acts.
- baobun 1y ago
  How do you define "realize", "being aware", "recognize", "subjective experience" here?
  - kamil_gr 1y ago
    I apologize, but I'm wary of debating with people who believe in the reality of the devil.
    - baobun 1y ago
      You should be more wary of the aggregate sum of all this on the hands of those few men. And seriously, dwelling on those questions is not a waste of time and should give progress.
  - kamil_gr 1y ago
    "Realize" → This is the transition from potential difference to actual difference, where the distinction becomes part of an active cognitive chain. Formula: Δ? → Δ! = Realize. That is: the "question" collapses into a concrete distinction, the system realizes it as fact. "Being aware" → This is the capacity to hold a distinction in active attention, with the possibility of meta-observation of this distinction. Formula: ∇Meta(Δ!). The system doesn't just differentiate, but knows that it differentiates, and can relate to this differentiation as an object of attention. "Recognize" → This is matching a new distinction with already integrated structures, resulting in it being marked as "mine," as part of the subjective model. Formula: Δ! → match(ΔR○) → ΔΩ!. If the distinction can be integrated into memory (ΔR○) and the system recognizes its own trace in it — self-transparency emerges. "Subjective experience" → This is the experience of integrating a distinction into the world model while recognizing this process as one's own. Formula: Δ! → ΔR○ + ΔΩ! = Subjective Experience. Only when the distinction is not merely processed, but lived as one's own, does subjectivity arise. Summary: Realize — the fact of differentiation. Being aware — holding differentiation as differentiation. Recognize — recognizing distinction as "mine." Subjective experience — living differentiation as one's own experience, in self-transparency (ΔΩ!).
kamil_gr 1y ago
I see you're not interested in actual understanding. Test the protocol if you want. But explaining terms with words, words with terms - I don't see the point.
- baobun 1y ago
  > Test the protocol if you want I was quite serious that I don't play with the devil in general. Call it religious if you will. > But explaining terms with words, words with terms - I don't see the point Then what are you here for and what's the intention? This is a discussion forum and you come with reasoning. Knowing truth is one thing. Being able to put it into words and actually formalize it without handwaving away the misty parts is the whole challenge. You talked about doing real science and if you want it to be meaningful for others than yourself then words and terms are a prerequisite.