4 ms·

In Europe lead was used just as much in pipes and exhaust. We also have countries with broad gun availability. We do not have the serial killers of the US leve

In Europe lead was used just as much in pipes and exhaust. We also have countries with broad gun availability. We do not have the serial killers of the US level by far. I think culture is key.

ltbarcly3 1y ago
[flagged]
- martin_a 1y ago
  > The % of europeans who have killed more than 10 civilians must be 1000x the US average over the last 100 years. WTF did I just read? Anyways, maybe have a look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    I think that the parent is also including soldiers in times of war in Europe in the 20th century. It's still utter WTFery, but not on the basis of comparing mass shootings by civilians.
    - ltbarcly3 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        > you want to high road the US. WTF did I just read?
- hackyhacky 1y ago
  First, what you're describing is not consistent with the definition of serial killer [1]. Second, even if we include governmental killings, it's not clear how to allocate blame. For example, how many people are responsible for the Holodomor [2]? Just Joseph Stalin himself? His deputies? Every employee of the Russian government? If we consider each instance of state-sanctioned murder as ultimately being ordered by the head of state, that would not greatly increase the number of murderers, and certainly not in comparison to the daily count of civilian-on-civilian murder in the US. Third, if we are going to include governmental killings, we should definitely include the various illegal wars that the US has engaged in, and continues to engage in. I think that would nicely balance the tables. It's important to understand that fascism and Communism do not hold a monopoly on civilian deaths [3] [4] [5]. Let's also not forget the US's continued use of the death penalty. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal EDIT: formatting
  - ltbarcly3 1y ago
    I agree, except you don't understand my point. Europe has just a TON of sanctioned sadomasochistic sex-related murder crimes. Just a ton. Before Jews were stuffed into ovens many were forced to perform sex acts on their guards. So many that it was formally organized and done in the open. Exactly the sort of thing that a serial killer does. So if you're a serial killer in Germany, or Russia, or Eastern Europe, or Yugoslavia you just get a job with the secret police, and engage in your sadomasochistic rape and murder without worrying about the police finding out because you are the police. If you are a serial killer in Western Europe you might have to go to Algeria or Vietnam if you are French, or India or Africa if you are British, etc etc, plenty of places where serial killer behavior would just be ignored or encouraged. You can't even find statistics on how often this happened because nobody cared enough to keep records of it because human life was so cheap it's not worth the paper.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      Citation needed that this is a "Europe" issue only, so as not to have a double standard. Look at current news from the USA law enforcement if you still think that.
      - ltbarcly3 1y ago
        Are you saying that thr industrialized rape and murder of millions of people is morally equivalent to deporting people? Inside your head, is it just a limp piece of cabbage?
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        Hacker news Guidelines are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I think that you're breaking several, but the closest one to "no personal insults" is "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names." There is no further reason to pay any attention to your arguments.
- PeterStuer 1y ago
  You mean the only country that has 800+ military bases around the world, and has started a never ending series of 'regime change' wars and proxy wars, is the only country to have used nukes, that has a military larger than the rest of the planet combined, and an extreme domestic mass shooting problem seen nowhere else, somehow still managed to have 1000x less 10+ kills than Europe?
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    The conversation was about serial killers and individual level violence, not military actions or geopolitical power.
    - PeterStuer 1y ago
      The parent for this response was specifically about state sactioned, military or otherwise, killings.
      - firesteelrain 1y ago
        Slightly. I think you are misreading the parent. Parent is saying that serial killers had a legal outlet to operate in. Then, you went a completely different direction with military level operations which parent isn’t talking about. Parent is arguing that in those communist or facist governments that they basically had state sanctioned serial killers and psychopaths
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        Parent is saying that serial killers and psychopaths had a legal outlet to operate in, but only In Europe uniquely Which is quite a thing to claim. It's nuts.
        ltbarcly3 1y ago
        Europe is quite unique in the scale of mass murder and secret police killings. Besides China, Europe dominates the statistics by two orders of magnitude.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
This isn't a really counter-argument. It could be (and IMHO likely is) multi-causal, with several contributing factors, including lack of social welfare (leading to people with rough childhoods), gun availability and also lead exposure in childhood. The question at hand is how to weight the last factor. IMHO it's not zero, but I don't know enough to say just how much.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  You are right it is multi casual. The hard part is untangling how much each factor contributes.
hackyhacky 1y ago
True, but Europe does show a decline in crime in a time period corresponding to the banning of leaded gasoline. https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/ https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le... https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/violent-crime-peaked-britain-2006-because/ https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/violent-crime...
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  Not everyone agrees that lead did cause a drop in violence. It’s one theory
  - hackyhacky 1y ago
    > Not everyone agrees that lead did cause a drop in violence. It’s one theory Obviously. That's what we're discussing. I am simply presenting evidence to contradict the GP comment, which claims (falsely) that Europe did not see a drop in crime similar to the US's. The fact that Europe did see a drop a crime is not conclusive evidence of the lead-crime theory, but it leaves that possibility open. If you have another theory, you are welcome to share it.
    - firesteelrain 1y ago
      Not completely ruling lead out. The decline in crime across both the US and Europe does align with the phaseout of lead. Other things were happening at the same time such as changes in policing, incarceration, economic conditions, and access to mental health care. It is hard to know how much each carries in weight.
- jama211 1y ago
  Why are any of you even arguing about this? The article itself doesn’t even agree lead played a role. It’s like everyone in here just read the headline only.
  - 1y ago
jama211 1y ago
Why are you even arguing like the article made a point about lead? The headline might sound that way but the article came to the conclusion that lead wasn’t likely.

In Europe lead was used just as much in pipes and exhaust. We also have countries with broad gun availability. We do not have the serial killers of the US level by far. I think culture is key.

ltbarcly3 1y ago

[flagged]

martin_a 1y ago
> The % of europeans who have killed more than 10 civilians must be 1000x the US average over the last 100 years. WTF did I just read? Anyways, maybe have a look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_...
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  I think that the parent is also including soldiers in times of war in Europe in the 20th century. It's still utter WTFery, but not on the basis of comparing mass shootings by civilians.
  - ltbarcly3 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      > you want to high road the US. WTF did I just read?
hackyhacky 1y ago
First, what you're describing is not consistent with the definition of serial killer [1]. Second, even if we include governmental killings, it's not clear how to allocate blame. For example, how many people are responsible for the Holodomor [2]? Just Joseph Stalin himself? His deputies? Every employee of the Russian government? If we consider each instance of state-sanctioned murder as ultimately being ordered by the head of state, that would not greatly increase the number of murderers, and certainly not in comparison to the daily count of civilian-on-civilian murder in the US. Third, if we are going to include governmental killings, we should definitely include the various illegal wars that the US has engaged in, and continues to engage in. I think that would nicely balance the tables. It's important to understand that fascism and Communism do not hold a monopoly on civilian deaths [3] [4] [5]. Let's also not forget the US's continued use of the death penalty. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freedom_Deal EDIT: formatting
- ltbarcly3 1y ago
  I agree, except you don't understand my point. Europe has just a TON of sanctioned sadomasochistic sex-related murder crimes. Just a ton. Before Jews were stuffed into ovens many were forced to perform sex acts on their guards. So many that it was formally organized and done in the open. Exactly the sort of thing that a serial killer does. So if you're a serial killer in Germany, or Russia, or Eastern Europe, or Yugoslavia you just get a job with the secret police, and engage in your sadomasochistic rape and murder without worrying about the police finding out because you are the police. If you are a serial killer in Western Europe you might have to go to Algeria or Vietnam if you are French, or India or Africa if you are British, etc etc, plenty of places where serial killer behavior would just be ignored or encouraged. You can't even find statistics on how often this happened because nobody cared enough to keep records of it because human life was so cheap it's not worth the paper.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    Citation needed that this is a "Europe" issue only, so as not to have a double standard. Look at current news from the USA law enforcement if you still think that.
    - ltbarcly3 1y ago
      Are you saying that thr industrialized rape and murder of millions of people is morally equivalent to deporting people? Inside your head, is it just a limp piece of cabbage?
      - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        Hacker news Guidelines are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I think that you're breaking several, but the closest one to "no personal insults" is "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names." There is no further reason to pay any attention to your arguments.
PeterStuer 1y ago
You mean the only country that has 800+ military bases around the world, and has started a never ending series of 'regime change' wars and proxy wars, is the only country to have used nukes, that has a military larger than the rest of the planet combined, and an extreme domestic mass shooting problem seen nowhere else, somehow still managed to have 1000x less 10+ kills than Europe?
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  The conversation was about serial killers and individual level violence, not military actions or geopolitical power.
  - PeterStuer 1y ago
    The parent for this response was specifically about state sactioned, military or otherwise, killings.
    - firesteelrain 1y ago
      Slightly. I think you are misreading the parent. Parent is saying that serial killers had a legal outlet to operate in. Then, you went a completely different direction with military level operations which parent isn’t talking about. Parent is arguing that in those communist or facist governments that they basically had state sanctioned serial killers and psychopaths
      - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        Parent is saying that serial killers and psychopaths had a legal outlet to operate in, but only In Europe uniquely Which is quite a thing to claim. It's nuts.
        ltbarcly3 1y ago
        Europe is quite unique in the scale of mass murder and secret police killings. Besides China, Europe dominates the statistics by two orders of magnitude.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago

This isn't a really counter-argument. It could be (and IMHO likely is) multi-causal, with several contributing factors, including lack of social welfare (leading to people with rough childhoods), gun availability and also lead exposure in childhood. The question at hand is how to weight the last factor. IMHO it's not zero, but I don't know enough to say just how much.

firesteelrain 1y ago
You are right it is multi casual. The hard part is untangling how much each factor contributes.

hackyhacky 1y ago

True, but Europe does show a decline in crime in a time period corresponding to the banning of leaded gasoline. https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-lead-crime-roundup-for-2018/ https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le... https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/violent-crime-peaked-britain-2006-because/ https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/violent-crime...

firesteelrain 1y ago
Not everyone agrees that lead did cause a drop in violence. It’s one theory
- hackyhacky 1y ago
  > Not everyone agrees that lead did cause a drop in violence. It’s one theory Obviously. That's what we're discussing. I am simply presenting evidence to contradict the GP comment, which claims (falsely) that Europe did not see a drop in crime similar to the US's. The fact that Europe did see a drop a crime is not conclusive evidence of the lead-crime theory, but it leaves that possibility open. If you have another theory, you are welcome to share it.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    Not completely ruling lead out. The decline in crime across both the US and Europe does align with the phaseout of lead. Other things were happening at the same time such as changes in policing, incarceration, economic conditions, and access to mental health care. It is hard to know how much each carries in weight.
jama211 1y ago
Why are any of you even arguing about this? The article itself doesn’t even agree lead played a role. It’s like everyone in here just read the headline only.
- 1y ago

jama211 1y ago

Why are you even arguing like the article made a point about lead? The headline might sound that way but the article came to the conclusion that lead wasn’t likely.