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> I chuckled at first, but as a beneficiary of Pax Americana, this is a really sad state of affairs I've felt some of the same. I believe what I'm actually att

> I chuckled at first, but as a beneficiary of Pax Americana, this is a really sad state of affairs I've felt some of the same. I believe what I'm actually attached to (both emotionally and financially) is the stability of the old system. As you say in a later comment, the value of the American hegemony has been in the fixed but flexible rules and the absence of any direct power politics. The market based economy and "American philosophy" has been secondary. It's easy to forget that we used to have small skirmishes with neighboring countries constantly. My country (Denmark) had a war with Sweden every 40 years up into the 19th century. We have to remember that a new system, possibly without America at the helm, cannot be one of power politics. We cannot let the paranoia of Trumps America dictate our politics.

consumer451 1y ago
That group of authoritarian believers has won the USA, and are now very focused on the EU. This is very similar to how the CCP views Taiwan. The EU and Taiwan are examples of the other possibility, and the authoritarians just can't have that. See Musk's comments [0] and very obious regarding German politics, the CPAC gathering in Hungary, the ownership of euronews.com, the recent creation of r/europe_sub... We need to stop being passive about all of this, or democracy will become a historical note, and not something that we all enjoy on a day-to-day basis. We have all taken democracy for granted, like breathable air. We can no longer do that. edit: [0] I am sorry if it makes anyone comfortable, but the richest man in the world clearly gave 2 nazi salutes live to the world, with far too few repercussions. This is the reality which we need understand, and fight vigorously.
- delusional 1y ago
  I understand the sentiment, I really do. I also acknowledge that what you offer is more immediately actionable than what I have, but I really hope we can be a little more thoughtful than that. I happen to believe that the success we've seen has been, in large part at least, due to being able to take democracy for granted. We haven't had to fight for basic rights or the privilege of survival, so we've been able to fight much more ideological fights. We have rightfully had the assumption that even as we all fight bitterly over politics, you won't send your navy to attack my ports. We were safe in our disagreements being intellectual. I fear that while defending our stable democratic institutions we end up supplanting those very same institutions with the enemy. You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness, you must chose to be soft and level headed, even it feels most hobbling. Else we risk becoming Trump in the name of warding him off.
  - consumer451 1y ago
    I am honestly not sure what I am proposing myself, exactly. However, if we read each other correctly, I think I agree with your concerns. Might we both be touching on/dancing around the concept of the "paradox of tolerance?" [0] As a practical example, one of the most European things in modern history was this beheading of the monarch live music video [1], which was broadcast to the world as part of the Olympic opening ceremonies in Paris. I remember seeing how uncomfortable it made the broadcasters in various countries. It was glorious. Revolution can happen, and this was a reminder. We should never shy away from discussion of our history. I am not a huge metal fan, but this tiny part of the opening ceremonies event makes me very emotional and proud to my deepest core. I still cannot believe it happened. We should be reminding everyone of the French revolution, its non-ideal near term outcomes, and other uncomfortable European history very regularly. As you stated in your original reply, it is easy to forget how we got here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hTMYk7orHw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hTMYk7orHw
  - consumer451 1y ago
    > You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness, you must chose to be soft and level headed, even it feels most hobbling. Else we risk becoming Trump in the name of warding him off. I am with you my friend! In the interest of open discussion and understanding, I made this separate comment to ask you, or anyone, to please share what your concerns were here. If you don't mind, could you please give an example of how you see it possibly going wrong?
  - tremon 1y ago
    You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness This is not true, and worse, this attitude is self-defeating when you have no control over the law nor its application (as is arguably the case right now in the USA). True, you cannot rebuild on top of lawlessness, but you need to reach the rebuilding stage first. And the further you let the current regime entrench itself, the more lawlessness will be required to destroy it.
    - consumer451 1y ago
- throw0101c 1y ago
  > That group of authoritarian believers has won the USA, and are now very focused on the EU. See recent article "The Heritage Foundation, MAGA's missionaries, sets its sights on Europe": * https://www.lemonde.fr/en/m-le-mag/article/2025/06/22/the-heritage-foundation-sets-its-sights-on-europe_6742608_117.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/m-le-mag/article/2025/06/22/the-he... MAGA got a lot of inspiration from Orban and Hungary: * "Make America Hungary Again":* https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/07/why-special-republican-relationship-hungary-so-worrying/679035/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/07/wh... * "Why Conservatives Around the World Have Hungary's Orbán": https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-conservatives-around-the-world-have-embraced-hungarys-viktor-orban https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-conservatives-aro...
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >See Musk's comments [0] and very obious regarding German politics, the CPAC gathering in Hungary, the ownership of euronews.com, the recent creation of r/europe_sub... We need to stop being passive about all of this, or democracy will become a historical note, and not something that we all enjoy on a day-to-day basis. What exactly are the actual issues and the solutions you propose other than speech censorship to ban the right wing opinions you dislike? Your post is just reddit style left wing virtue signaling, while not talking about any actual issues the people are having that make them vote right: cost of living, stagnating wages, illegal immigrations, wealth inequality etc. People in EU don't care if a US billionaire Elon makes the Nazi salute in the US, where it's not illegal, when they can't afford to pay rent. It's a non-issue in EU outside the terminally online redditors left wing bubble. >We have all taken democracy for granted, like breathable air. We don't have a democracy when the EU representative, Ursula v.d. Leyen is not democratically elected by the people and whenever the people try to vote for a right wing candidate those candidates get banned/excluded form elections to "protect democracy" which is ironic and is what's causing the disdain of the voters and right wing shift, away from the status quo: people don't feel represented by their leaders and dislike the censorship masquerading as "protection of democracy" happening in Europe.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        "fascism" isn't a vague term meaning "government does things I don't like". It's a specific right wing ideology not at all related to what I was talking about. > Yes, emphasis on appointed, appointed is not the same as elected. Hence, not democratically elected. Appointed just like the US president or any minister in any democratic government ever. Are those not democratic? > Sorry to break it to you, but then your definition of right wing is super skewed. "She is a member of the centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and its affiliated European political party, the European People's Party." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen I think your definition is skewed.

consumer451 1y ago

That group of authoritarian believers has won the USA, and are now very focused on the EU. This is very similar to how the CCP views Taiwan. The EU and Taiwan are examples of the other possibility, and the authoritarians just can't have that. See Musk's comments [0] and very obious regarding German politics, the CPAC gathering in Hungary, the ownership of euronews.com, the recent creation of r/europe_sub... We need to stop being passive about all of this, or democracy will become a historical note, and not something that we all enjoy on a day-to-day basis. We have all taken democracy for granted, like breathable air. We can no longer do that. edit: [0] I am sorry if it makes anyone comfortable, but the richest man in the world clearly gave 2 nazi salutes live to the world, with far too few repercussions. This is the reality which we need understand, and fight vigorously.

delusional 1y ago
I understand the sentiment, I really do. I also acknowledge that what you offer is more immediately actionable than what I have, but I really hope we can be a little more thoughtful than that. I happen to believe that the success we've seen has been, in large part at least, due to being able to take democracy for granted. We haven't had to fight for basic rights or the privilege of survival, so we've been able to fight much more ideological fights. We have rightfully had the assumption that even as we all fight bitterly over politics, you won't send your navy to attack my ports. We were safe in our disagreements being intellectual. I fear that while defending our stable democratic institutions we end up supplanting those very same institutions with the enemy. You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness, you must chose to be soft and level headed, even it feels most hobbling. Else we risk becoming Trump in the name of warding him off.
- consumer451 1y ago
  I am honestly not sure what I am proposing myself, exactly. However, if we read each other correctly, I think I agree with your concerns. Might we both be touching on/dancing around the concept of the "paradox of tolerance?" [0] As a practical example, one of the most European things in modern history was this beheading of the monarch live music video [1], which was broadcast to the world as part of the Olympic opening ceremonies in Paris. I remember seeing how uncomfortable it made the broadcasters in various countries. It was glorious. Revolution can happen, and this was a reminder. We should never shy away from discussion of our history. I am not a huge metal fan, but this tiny part of the opening ceremonies event makes me very emotional and proud to my deepest core. I still cannot believe it happened. We should be reminding everyone of the French revolution, its non-ideal near term outcomes, and other uncomfortable European history very regularly. As you stated in your original reply, it is easy to forget how we got here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hTMYk7orHw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hTMYk7orHw
- consumer451 1y ago
  > You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness, you must chose to be soft and level headed, even it feels most hobbling. Else we risk becoming Trump in the name of warding him off. I am with you my friend! In the interest of open discussion and understanding, I made this separate comment to ask you, or anyone, to please share what your concerns were here. If you don't mind, could you please give an example of how you see it possibly going wrong?
- tremon 1y ago
  You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness This is not true, and worse, this attitude is self-defeating when you have no control over the law nor its application (as is arguably the case right now in the USA). True, you cannot rebuild on top of lawlessness, but you need to reach the rebuilding stage first. And the further you let the current regime entrench itself, the more lawlessness will be required to destroy it.
  - consumer451 1y ago
throw0101c 1y ago
> That group of authoritarian believers has won the USA, and are now very focused on the EU. See recent article "The Heritage Foundation, MAGA's missionaries, sets its sights on Europe": * https://www.lemonde.fr/en/m-le-mag/article/2025/06/22/the-heritage-foundation-sets-its-sights-on-europe_6742608_117.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/m-le-mag/article/2025/06/22/the-he... MAGA got a lot of inspiration from Orban and Hungary: * "Make America Hungary Again":* https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/07/why-special-republican-relationship-hungary-so-worrying/679035/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/07/wh... * "Why Conservatives Around the World Have Hungary's Orbán": https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-conservatives-around-the-world-have-embraced-hungarys-viktor-orban https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-conservatives-aro...
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>See Musk's comments [0] and very obious regarding German politics, the CPAC gathering in Hungary, the ownership of euronews.com, the recent creation of r/europe_sub... We need to stop being passive about all of this, or democracy will become a historical note, and not something that we all enjoy on a day-to-day basis. What exactly are the actual issues and the solutions you propose other than speech censorship to ban the right wing opinions you dislike? Your post is just reddit style left wing virtue signaling, while not talking about any actual issues the people are having that make them vote right: cost of living, stagnating wages, illegal immigrations, wealth inequality etc. People in EU don't care if a US billionaire Elon makes the Nazi salute in the US, where it's not illegal, when they can't afford to pay rent. It's a non-issue in EU outside the terminally online redditors left wing bubble. >We have all taken democracy for granted, like breathable air. We don't have a democracy when the EU representative, Ursula v.d. Leyen is not democratically elected by the people and whenever the people try to vote for a right wing candidate those candidates get banned/excluded form elections to "protect democracy" which is ironic and is what's causing the disdain of the voters and right wing shift, away from the status quo: people don't feel represented by their leaders and dislike the censorship masquerading as "protection of democracy" happening in Europe.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      "fascism" isn't a vague term meaning "government does things I don't like". It's a specific right wing ideology not at all related to what I was talking about. > Yes, emphasis on appointed, appointed is not the same as elected. Hence, not democratically elected. Appointed just like the US president or any minister in any democratic government ever. Are those not democratic? > Sorry to break it to you, but then your definition of right wing is super skewed. "She is a member of the centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and its affiliated European political party, the European People's Party." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen I think your definition is skewed.