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In EU-focused online forums, I have recently seen MAGA referred to as "Make America Go Away." I chuckled at first, but as a beneficiary of Pax Americana, this

In EU-focused online forums, I have recently seen MAGA referred to as "Make America Go Away." I chuckled at first, but as a beneficiary of Pax Americana, this is a really sad state of affairs. However, I am really pro-EU, and I hope that we are up to the task coming forth.

saubeidl 1y ago
I don't see vassalage as something worth preserving. It's time for a Pax Europeana on European soil.
- consumer451 1y ago
  > It's time for a Pax Europeana on European soil. I support this 100%, and have said nearly these exact words in the past. However, the concept of Pax __ applies to the entire "world." Even the USA's supposed enemies benefited from the rules based global order, a lot of the time. If Pax Europa is to be a thing, it needs to have effects beyond Europe's borders. The democratic European way, surviving and thriving, is the last hope for a bright near-term future for all of humanity. I truly believe this. note: I edited my gp comment prior to seeing your response.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    Pax Romana - the origin of this phrase - was limited to the Europe and the Mediterranean region. During that same time frame, Han Dynasty china was anything but at pax. We can aim for the same regional scope again. I don't think all conflicts around the world should be our business.
    - consumer451 1y ago
      Yes, maybe after your response, I put the word 'world' in scare quotes = "world" thinking about this exact issue. Other thoughts were 'known world,' 'visible world'... but those don't translate to today. I need to set my profile's delay number higher to allow for more comment editing time.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        But I think that's exactly the point - we only need to care about "our world". Conflicts in Asia shouldn't be our problem, as an example. We should stop the US from dragging us into quagmires in the Middle East, etc etc. What matters is that we have peace at home and the strength to preserve it. The rest shouldn't be up to us.
        consumer451 1y ago
        I hear what you are saying, and I respect it. However, what happens when some group threatens to shut down a major global shipping route that the EU relies on? What happens when imperialism spreads near our borders, but not yet across them? Do we wait until the final moment to mobilize? That seems like horrible planning. In the period between WW II and Iraq II, the USA used soft and military power to keep basic world order (country borders) and commerce running. It was the enforcer of the post-war Rules Based Order. This was a good thing, that I believe we all took for granted. Even the USA has now taken that for granted. That historical period is now officially over. What/who will fill that void of global stability?
        ivandenysov 1y ago
        That was the case before long range weapons of mass destruction became a thing
        saubeidl 1y ago
        We have those, too. MAD works.
        consumer451 1y ago
        Who is "we" regarding a nuclear deterrent in the EU? France? That's not "we." The EU countries who really need a nuclear deterrent: Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia do not have any MAD. If the EU is invaded in those countries with traditional weapons, what will be our response? Certainly not MAD.
delusional 1y ago
> I chuckled at first, but as a beneficiary of Pax Americana, this is a really sad state of affairs I've felt some of the same. I believe what I'm actually attached to (both emotionally and financially) is the stability of the old system. As you say in a later comment, the value of the American hegemony has been in the fixed but flexible rules and the absence of any direct power politics. The market based economy and "American philosophy" has been secondary. It's easy to forget that we used to have small skirmishes with neighboring countries constantly. My country (Denmark) had a war with Sweden every 40 years up into the 19th century. We have to remember that a new system, possibly without America at the helm, cannot be one of power politics. We cannot let the paranoia of Trumps America dictate our politics.
- consumer451 1y ago
  That group of authoritarian believers has won the USA, and are now very focused on the EU. This is very similar to how the CCP views Taiwan. The EU and Taiwan are examples of the other possibility, and the authoritarians just can't have that. See Musk's comments [0] and very obious regarding German politics, the CPAC gathering in Hungary, the ownership of euronews.com, the recent creation of r/europe_sub... We need to stop being passive about all of this, or democracy will become a historical note, and not something that we all enjoy on a day-to-day basis. We have all taken democracy for granted, like breathable air. We can no longer do that. edit: [0] I am sorry if it makes anyone comfortable, but the richest man in the world clearly gave 2 nazi salutes live to the world, with far too few repercussions. This is the reality which we need understand, and fight vigorously.
  - delusional 1y ago
    I understand the sentiment, I really do. I also acknowledge that what you offer is more immediately actionable than what I have, but I really hope we can be a little more thoughtful than that. I happen to believe that the success we've seen has been, in large part at least, due to being able to take democracy for granted. We haven't had to fight for basic rights or the privilege of survival, so we've been able to fight much more ideological fights. We have rightfully had the assumption that even as we all fight bitterly over politics, you won't send your navy to attack my ports. We were safe in our disagreements being intellectual. I fear that while defending our stable democratic institutions we end up supplanting those very same institutions with the enemy. You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness, you must chose to be soft and level headed, even it feels most hobbling. Else we risk becoming Trump in the name of warding him off.

saubeidl 1y ago

I don't see vassalage as something worth preserving. It's time for a Pax Europeana on European soil.

consumer451 1y ago
> It's time for a Pax Europeana on European soil. I support this 100%, and have said nearly these exact words in the past. However, the concept of Pax __ applies to the entire "world." Even the USA's supposed enemies benefited from the rules based global order, a lot of the time. If Pax Europa is to be a thing, it needs to have effects beyond Europe's borders. The democratic European way, surviving and thriving, is the last hope for a bright near-term future for all of humanity. I truly believe this. note: I edited my gp comment prior to seeing your response.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  Pax Romana - the origin of this phrase - was limited to the Europe and the Mediterranean region. During that same time frame, Han Dynasty china was anything but at pax. We can aim for the same regional scope again. I don't think all conflicts around the world should be our business.
  - consumer451 1y ago
    Yes, maybe after your response, I put the word 'world' in scare quotes = "world" thinking about this exact issue. Other thoughts were 'known world,' 'visible world'... but those don't translate to today. I need to set my profile's delay number higher to allow for more comment editing time.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      But I think that's exactly the point - we only need to care about "our world". Conflicts in Asia shouldn't be our problem, as an example. We should stop the US from dragging us into quagmires in the Middle East, etc etc. What matters is that we have peace at home and the strength to preserve it. The rest shouldn't be up to us.
      - consumer451 1y ago
        I hear what you are saying, and I respect it. However, what happens when some group threatens to shut down a major global shipping route that the EU relies on? What happens when imperialism spreads near our borders, but not yet across them? Do we wait until the final moment to mobilize? That seems like horrible planning. In the period between WW II and Iraq II, the USA used soft and military power to keep basic world order (country borders) and commerce running. It was the enforcer of the post-war Rules Based Order. This was a good thing, that I believe we all took for granted. Even the USA has now taken that for granted. That historical period is now officially over. What/who will fill that void of global stability?
      - ivandenysov 1y ago
        That was the case before long range weapons of mass destruction became a thing
        saubeidl 1y ago
        We have those, too. MAD works.
        consumer451 1y ago
        Who is "we" regarding a nuclear deterrent in the EU? France? That's not "we." The EU countries who really need a nuclear deterrent: Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia do not have any MAD. If the EU is invaded in those countries with traditional weapons, what will be our response? Certainly not MAD.

delusional 1y ago

> I chuckled at first, but as a beneficiary of Pax Americana, this is a really sad state of affairs I've felt some of the same. I believe what I'm actually attached to (both emotionally and financially) is the stability of the old system. As you say in a later comment, the value of the American hegemony has been in the fixed but flexible rules and the absence of any direct power politics. The market based economy and "American philosophy" has been secondary. It's easy to forget that we used to have small skirmishes with neighboring countries constantly. My country (Denmark) had a war with Sweden every 40 years up into the 19th century. We have to remember that a new system, possibly without America at the helm, cannot be one of power politics. We cannot let the paranoia of Trumps America dictate our politics.

consumer451 1y ago
That group of authoritarian believers has won the USA, and are now very focused on the EU. This is very similar to how the CCP views Taiwan. The EU and Taiwan are examples of the other possibility, and the authoritarians just can't have that. See Musk's comments [0] and very obious regarding German politics, the CPAC gathering in Hungary, the ownership of euronews.com, the recent creation of r/europe_sub... We need to stop being passive about all of this, or democracy will become a historical note, and not something that we all enjoy on a day-to-day basis. We have all taken democracy for granted, like breathable air. We can no longer do that. edit: [0] I am sorry if it makes anyone comfortable, but the richest man in the world clearly gave 2 nazi salutes live to the world, with far too few repercussions. This is the reality which we need understand, and fight vigorously.
- delusional 1y ago
  I understand the sentiment, I really do. I also acknowledge that what you offer is more immediately actionable than what I have, but I really hope we can be a little more thoughtful than that. I happen to believe that the success we've seen has been, in large part at least, due to being able to take democracy for granted. We haven't had to fight for basic rights or the privilege of survival, so we've been able to fight much more ideological fights. We have rightfully had the assumption that even as we all fight bitterly over politics, you won't send your navy to attack my ports. We were safe in our disagreements being intellectual. I fear that while defending our stable democratic institutions we end up supplanting those very same institutions with the enemy. You cannot fight lawlessness with lawlessness, you must chose to be soft and level headed, even it feels most hobbling. Else we risk becoming Trump in the name of warding him off.