3 ms·

> Because net payments would be pretty much the same, all incentives would stay pretty much the same as today. Nope, in Germany you are required to work. If yo

> Because net payments would be pretty much the same, all incentives would stay pretty much the same as today. Nope, in Germany you are required to work. If you can't find a job, you still have to try (and prove that), you need to stay at home / be available (and notify the state about your vacation or you might be punished by receiving less welfare) and of course you have to use up all money or wealth you have and state, in written, that you have no other sources of wealth. So UBI would absolutely change incentives here.

eru 1y ago
Good point! Though in practice it's fairly easy to put in a token effort so your welfare won't be cut, but avoid actually getting hired. But you are very right that the token effort is still effort. > [...] and of course you have to use up all money or wealth you have and state, in written, that you have no other sources of wealth. That is similar to taxing that money and wealth. But you are right.
- mantas 1y ago
  The sell-possessions-before-welfare is very very different from taxing. With taxes, even crazy high, you can still accumulate wealth. Taxes slow you down, but it’s still possible. With net-worth-ceiling to receive welfare, you’re forced you cannot accumulate wealth on welfare. And your previous wealth is gone before you get to earn welfare. Got a nice house and BMW and decided to slow it down and live on welfare? Or, more likely, work under table and collect welfare too? Good luck with that :)
  - eru 1y ago
    > With taxes, even crazy high, you can still accumulate wealth. Taxes slow you down, but it’s still possible. That's only true for income taxes, not for wealth taxes.
    - mantas 1y ago
      Even wealth taxes don’t force you to sell. But welfare with wealth threshold does.
      - eru 1y ago
        > Even wealth taxes don’t force you to sell. But welfare with wealth threshold does. How are you going to pay those wealth taxes? (Assuming you have no income.)
        mantas 1y ago
        With a wealth tax, if you got no fresh incomes, you can sell some of your stuff to cover your taxes and restart. Of course, same applies to welfare - you can only sell part of your stuff. But the caveat is you won't have access to welfare till you sell all of it AND spend the money you got. Personally I like welfare-with-net-worth-threshold. Obviously it should not apply to unemployment insurance which is, well, insurance.
        eru 1y ago
        Unemployment insurance (and health insurance etc) should be split in two: the pure insurance component, and the solidarity component. The former can be handled by the private sector just fine, the latter can be done by governments. > Personally I like welfare-with-net-worth-threshold. The only thing that really matters are net payments (and marginal net payments, ie how many cents can you keep from the next gross dollar you earn). It doesn't really matter whether the effective marginal tax rate is made up of income tax or a phasing out of welfare benefits or a combination of both (and throw in some other taxes etc, too). In the name of simplicity, you might want to have a single government agency that assesses your income and net worth. Instead of having both the tax people and the welfare agencies do that and duplicate work. (Though ideally, we'd use forms of taxation like land value tax where the government doesn't need to assess your income nor net worth in the first place.)

eru 1y ago

Good point! Though in practice it's fairly easy to put in a token effort so your welfare won't be cut, but avoid actually getting hired. But you are very right that the token effort is still effort. > [...] and of course you have to use up all money or wealth you have and state, in written, that you have no other sources of wealth. That is similar to taxing that money and wealth. But you are right.

mantas 1y ago
The sell-possessions-before-welfare is very very different from taxing. With taxes, even crazy high, you can still accumulate wealth. Taxes slow you down, but it’s still possible. With net-worth-ceiling to receive welfare, you’re forced you cannot accumulate wealth on welfare. And your previous wealth is gone before you get to earn welfare. Got a nice house and BMW and decided to slow it down and live on welfare? Or, more likely, work under table and collect welfare too? Good luck with that :)
- eru 1y ago
  > With taxes, even crazy high, you can still accumulate wealth. Taxes slow you down, but it’s still possible. That's only true for income taxes, not for wealth taxes.
  - mantas 1y ago
    Even wealth taxes don’t force you to sell. But welfare with wealth threshold does.
    - eru 1y ago
      > Even wealth taxes don’t force you to sell. But welfare with wealth threshold does. How are you going to pay those wealth taxes? (Assuming you have no income.)
      - mantas 1y ago
        With a wealth tax, if you got no fresh incomes, you can sell some of your stuff to cover your taxes and restart. Of course, same applies to welfare - you can only sell part of your stuff. But the caveat is you won't have access to welfare till you sell all of it AND spend the money you got. Personally I like welfare-with-net-worth-threshold. Obviously it should not apply to unemployment insurance which is, well, insurance.
        eru 1y ago
        Unemployment insurance (and health insurance etc) should be split in two: the pure insurance component, and the solidarity component. The former can be handled by the private sector just fine, the latter can be done by governments. > Personally I like welfare-with-net-worth-threshold. The only thing that really matters are net payments (and marginal net payments, ie how many cents can you keep from the next gross dollar you earn). It doesn't really matter whether the effective marginal tax rate is made up of income tax or a phasing out of welfare benefits or a combination of both (and throw in some other taxes etc, too). In the name of simplicity, you might want to have a single government agency that assesses your income and net worth. Instead of having both the tax people and the welfare agencies do that and duplicate work. (Though ideally, we'd use forms of taxation like land value tax where the government doesn't need to assess your income nor net worth in the first place.)