4 ms·

H1-B visas hurt one type of worker and exploit another

63 points by 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago

downrightmike 1y ago
Outsourcing is 1,000% worse.
- InkCanon 1y ago
  If you look at the numbers, tech layoffs are really offshoring. India is not only untouched by layoffs, they're actually hiring https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/microsoft-confirms-global-layoffs-but-not-in-india-this-time-report/article69094782.ece https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/microsoft-confi....
  - spwa4 1y ago
    Well if there's any truth to the idea that "offshoring" to AI is about to start, it'll be a short-lived victory.
  - fakedang 1y ago
    I've heard of layoffs happening in the Indian offices too. Just not to the high extents of the US and EU offices, but they are happening.
    - downrightmike 1y ago
      That's likely just "normal" churn, they have to fire people to keep people from getting comfortable.
- lispisok 1y ago
  Workers are being attacked from every direction capital can find.
  - jgalt212 1y ago
    Helps explain why the progressive running on pocketbook economics and not the neo-liberal running on identity politics won the dem nomination for Mayor in NYC.
  - linotype 1y ago
    It’s going to suck to be a worker in the future. That’s why my wife and I are investing heavily across a broad range of assets: we want to be able to work for less (inevitable) while maintaining our quality of life as it is through investment dividends.
digianarchist 1y ago
Bernie’s right on somethings here and wrong on others. There’s already a “best and brightest” visa and it’s not H1B. It’s O1. That said H1B is essentially the only reasonable way for people to immigrate to the United States through employment. Most employers are not going to stick out the convoluted process to obtain an EB2/3 immigrant visa for a worker they haven’t any experience with especially since they can enter the country and immediately work for someone else.
- hayd 1y ago
  L1 is another option.
  - digianarchist 1y ago
    As is TN and E3 but L1 is only an option if you can work for the company abroad for a year which is only possible if the company has some presence in your country. L1 is also harder to qualify for than H1B in terms of job requirements.
- throwawa14223 1y ago
  Isn’t H1B a temporary worker? That didn’t seem like it should be a path.
  - digianarchist 1y ago
    All non-immigrannt visas are temporary. You adjust status after you enter the United States. H1Bs can stay indefinitely only if they have a pending Green Card application.
sxp 1y ago
> And one way to help make that happen is to substantially increase the guest worker fees large corporations pay to fund scholarships, apprenticeships, and job training opportunities for American workers. This is something that I have advocated from my first days as a U.S. senator. This is the proper solution. Ideally, the H1-B program would remove quotas and lotteries and switch to a pure auction program for the fees. E.g, a Dutch auction for the X thousand available slots where the fee can be deducted from federal income taxes. If companies really want the best talent in the world, they should be willing to pay for it.
- digianarchist 1y ago
  That’s a great way to screw over every industry that isn’t tech. Hospitals and labs can’t afford to match tech spending to obtain H1Bs. If there’s going to be an auction then there needs to be an industry or job code cap too.
  - jay_kyburz 1y ago
    You could come up with some other code for industries where you actually need people. You can let capitalism do its thing, and you can put your finger on the scale for things that society needs but that are not as profitable.
    - digianarchist 1y ago
      There’s already a cap-exemption for non-profits. Most countries identify industry shortages and tailor their immigration needs to bring in people to fulfill those roles.
      - rayiner 1y ago
        > Most countries identify industry shortages and tailor their immigration needs to bring in people to fulfill those roles. This makes no sense economically. Auctioning immigrant slots to the highest bidder should allocate those spots to where they'll be most valued in the economy. What the countries you seem to be describing are doing is industry-selective wage suppression.
ergocoder 1y ago
I moved to US using H1B a decade ago and worked in FAANG earning 300K - 1.2M a year as an IC engineer. It never screams EXPLOITATION louder than this.
- InkCanon 1y ago
  The situation now is radically different. In the late 2000s/early 2010s, most H1B applications got approved (something like 80%). For a time before that, the H1B cap wasn't usually maxed out and any application would succeed. If I'm being blunt this is because of one country. H1Bs are dominated by this country. This country makes up 75% of applications and without these, H1Bs would actually be undersubscribed. The significant shift comes a lot from how this country has massive systems in place to perform wage arbitrage through IT consultancies. Compared to Chinese industrial outsourcing (which requires capex), wage arbitrage is pure profit in that there's almost no overhead. So these IT companies got phenomenally rich. These companies have a US branch, usually having a manager based in the US while the others are based in India. So it's no longer getting the best and brightest through H1B, but just a way to make money off the vast difference in economic conditions between a third and first world country. And there's a direct incentive to depress the economic conditions of workers, because that's money right there. Then this goes into overdrive when many US companies realize it's even cheaper to do it themselves and set up shop in this country. What happened to the US industrial base/blue collar workers is happening right now to white collar workers, except it'll go much faster because there's no physical equipment to move.
  - ergocoder 1y ago
    I remember. The year that it started maxing out was from 2013. We all know how to solve this problem e.g. ranked by compensations maybe with some restrictions and diversifying occupations a bit. We know which companies abuse it. The number of H1B with their salaries is public. Yet this article from Bernie grand-stands random stuff.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - 1y ago
1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
If you like this topic then you might also like the investigative report dicusseed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44404726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44404726
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
cadamsdotcom 1y ago
First let me say that I support the underlying intention of this piece of writing. However and this is crucial - it is based on a factually wrong premise which invalidates the entire hit piece. Unfortunately that also makes the surrounding discussion and angst misdirected. I am urging you to go into the rest of this comment with an open mind. H-1B visas require a “prevailing wage” which the foreign worker must be paid at or above in order to get a visa. Prevailing wages are made based on the area the worker will be in and their title, and are published on the DOL website: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages Before being allowed to hire a foreign worker a company must advertise the position in the US. This could be improved as right now you can put the ad in the most obscure newspaper you can find or on TV at 3am. But you do have to do something. The decision to grant or deny a visa is made by a consular officer - a trained human - who carefully considers all the foreign worker’s case materials (called a “petition”). All this is to say, they thought of this “bringing in foreign workers depresses wages” problem way back when they created this program and invented prevailing wages to mitigate it. They thought of “bringing in foreign workers denies locals opportunities to apply for those roles” way back when they created the program and invented job ad requirements to mitigate it. Don’t get me wrong the H-1B is definitely being exploited. Bodyshops are a thing. But it’s not at huge scale. It is a problem to be fixed with better enforcement and targeted reforms, not pitchforks. Mr. Sanders’ argument needs to be backed up differently. As it stands he is misleading the public. It’s surprisingly out of character.
- sul_tasto 1y ago
  Not being done at scale? That is blatantly false. The program needs to end. American workers are being undermined.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  If H1-B visas are really meant to fill jobs where there are not enough US workers than the minimum salary should be at least twice the prevailing wage. As it is it is just another unfair tool companies use to lower wages.
- nbardy 1y ago
  The local employees would be able to negotiate higher wages given the absent It provides supply in the market and lowers their bargaining power, so the parity in wages is parity in a lower baseline Also in practice there are salary ranges and the H1B's usually take the lower of the range AND work longer hours at the fear of visa loss.
UltraSane 1y ago
H1-B visa jobs should have a minimum salary of $200,000 a year for the US median cost of living.

63 points by 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago

downrightmike 1y ago

Outsourcing is 1,000% worse.

InkCanon 1y ago
If you look at the numbers, tech layoffs are really offshoring. India is not only untouched by layoffs, they're actually hiring https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/microsoft-confirms-global-layoffs-but-not-in-india-this-time-report/article69094782.ece https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/microsoft-confi....
- spwa4 1y ago
  Well if there's any truth to the idea that "offshoring" to AI is about to start, it'll be a short-lived victory.
- fakedang 1y ago
  I've heard of layoffs happening in the Indian offices too. Just not to the high extents of the US and EU offices, but they are happening.
  - downrightmike 1y ago
    That's likely just "normal" churn, they have to fire people to keep people from getting comfortable.
lispisok 1y ago
Workers are being attacked from every direction capital can find.
- jgalt212 1y ago
  Helps explain why the progressive running on pocketbook economics and not the neo-liberal running on identity politics won the dem nomination for Mayor in NYC.
- linotype 1y ago
  It’s going to suck to be a worker in the future. That’s why my wife and I are investing heavily across a broad range of assets: we want to be able to work for less (inevitable) while maintaining our quality of life as it is through investment dividends.

digianarchist 1y ago

Bernie’s right on somethings here and wrong on others. There’s already a “best and brightest” visa and it’s not H1B. It’s O1. That said H1B is essentially the only reasonable way for people to immigrate to the United States through employment. Most employers are not going to stick out the convoluted process to obtain an EB2/3 immigrant visa for a worker they haven’t any experience with especially since they can enter the country and immediately work for someone else.

hayd 1y ago
L1 is another option.
- digianarchist 1y ago
  As is TN and E3 but L1 is only an option if you can work for the company abroad for a year which is only possible if the company has some presence in your country. L1 is also harder to qualify for than H1B in terms of job requirements.
throwawa14223 1y ago
Isn’t H1B a temporary worker? That didn’t seem like it should be a path.
- digianarchist 1y ago
  All non-immigrannt visas are temporary. You adjust status after you enter the United States. H1Bs can stay indefinitely only if they have a pending Green Card application.

sxp 1y ago

> And one way to help make that happen is to substantially increase the guest worker fees large corporations pay to fund scholarships, apprenticeships, and job training opportunities for American workers. This is something that I have advocated from my first days as a U.S. senator. This is the proper solution. Ideally, the H1-B program would remove quotas and lotteries and switch to a pure auction program for the fees. E.g, a Dutch auction for the X thousand available slots where the fee can be deducted from federal income taxes. If companies really want the best talent in the world, they should be willing to pay for it.

digianarchist 1y ago
That’s a great way to screw over every industry that isn’t tech. Hospitals and labs can’t afford to match tech spending to obtain H1Bs. If there’s going to be an auction then there needs to be an industry or job code cap too.
- jay_kyburz 1y ago
  You could come up with some other code for industries where you actually need people. You can let capitalism do its thing, and you can put your finger on the scale for things that society needs but that are not as profitable.
  - digianarchist 1y ago
    There’s already a cap-exemption for non-profits. Most countries identify industry shortages and tailor their immigration needs to bring in people to fulfill those roles.
    - rayiner 1y ago
      > Most countries identify industry shortages and tailor their immigration needs to bring in people to fulfill those roles. This makes no sense economically. Auctioning immigrant slots to the highest bidder should allocate those spots to where they'll be most valued in the economy. What the countries you seem to be describing are doing is industry-selective wage suppression.

ergocoder 1y ago

I moved to US using H1B a decade ago and worked in FAANG earning 300K - 1.2M a year as an IC engineer. It never screams EXPLOITATION louder than this.

InkCanon 1y ago
The situation now is radically different. In the late 2000s/early 2010s, most H1B applications got approved (something like 80%). For a time before that, the H1B cap wasn't usually maxed out and any application would succeed. If I'm being blunt this is because of one country. H1Bs are dominated by this country. This country makes up 75% of applications and without these, H1Bs would actually be undersubscribed. The significant shift comes a lot from how this country has massive systems in place to perform wage arbitrage through IT consultancies. Compared to Chinese industrial outsourcing (which requires capex), wage arbitrage is pure profit in that there's almost no overhead. So these IT companies got phenomenally rich. These companies have a US branch, usually having a manager based in the US while the others are based in India. So it's no longer getting the best and brightest through H1B, but just a way to make money off the vast difference in economic conditions between a third and first world country. And there's a direct incentive to depress the economic conditions of workers, because that's money right there. Then this goes into overdrive when many US companies realize it's even cheaper to do it themselves and set up shop in this country. What happened to the US industrial base/blue collar workers is happening right now to white collar workers, except it'll go much faster because there's no physical equipment to move.
- ergocoder 1y ago
  I remember. The year that it started maxing out was from 2013. We all know how to solve this problem e.g. ranked by compensations maybe with some restrictions and diversifying occupations a bit. We know which companies abuse it. The number of H1B with their salaries is public. Yet this article from Bernie grand-stands random stuff.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- 1y ago

1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago

If you like this topic then you might also like the investigative report dicusseed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44404726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44404726

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

cadamsdotcom 1y ago

First let me say that I support the underlying intention of this piece of writing. However and this is crucial - it is based on a factually wrong premise which invalidates the entire hit piece. Unfortunately that also makes the surrounding discussion and angst misdirected. I am urging you to go into the rest of this comment with an open mind. H-1B visas require a “prevailing wage” which the foreign worker must be paid at or above in order to get a visa. Prevailing wages are made based on the area the worker will be in and their title, and are published on the DOL website: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages Before being allowed to hire a foreign worker a company must advertise the position in the US. This could be improved as right now you can put the ad in the most obscure newspaper you can find or on TV at 3am. But you do have to do something. The decision to grant or deny a visa is made by a consular officer - a trained human - who carefully considers all the foreign worker’s case materials (called a “petition”). All this is to say, they thought of this “bringing in foreign workers depresses wages” problem way back when they created this program and invented prevailing wages to mitigate it. They thought of “bringing in foreign workers denies locals opportunities to apply for those roles” way back when they created the program and invented job ad requirements to mitigate it. Don’t get me wrong the H-1B is definitely being exploited. Bodyshops are a thing. But it’s not at huge scale. It is a problem to be fixed with better enforcement and targeted reforms, not pitchforks. Mr. Sanders’ argument needs to be backed up differently. As it stands he is misleading the public. It’s surprisingly out of character.

sul_tasto 1y ago
Not being done at scale? That is blatantly false. The program needs to end. American workers are being undermined.
UltraSane 1y ago
If H1-B visas are really meant to fill jobs where there are not enough US workers than the minimum salary should be at least twice the prevailing wage. As it is it is just another unfair tool companies use to lower wages.
nbardy 1y ago
The local employees would be able to negotiate higher wages given the absent It provides supply in the market and lowers their bargaining power, so the parity in wages is parity in a lower baseline Also in practice there are salary ranges and the H1B's usually take the lower of the range AND work longer hours at the fear of visa loss.

UltraSane 1y ago

H1-B visa jobs should have a minimum salary of $200,000 a year for the US median cost of living.