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I would not extrapolate from the discourse with one German to a general statement of a heterogeneous population of ~80M people. There are many different opinion

I would not extrapolate from the discourse with one German to a general statement of a heterogeneous population of ~80M people. There are many different opinions and positions in Germany - like in every country in the world. Please keep that in mind. Germany has indeed still have a ‘vaccination’. How well it works, and whether it is not exploited by politics, is another matter. Lastly, the conflict in the Middle East is one of the most complex conflicts in recent human history - and there is no easy way out. That also applies to the situation in Gaza.

Cyph0n 1y ago
No, there is nothing “complex” about Gaza - neither before nor after Oct 7. The late Michael Brooks shared a small thought experiment that might help elucidate this: https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q
- VonGallifrey 1y ago
  It’s one thing to call the situation “nothing complex”, but there was no solution in this clip. Usually when people call something complex they mean that the solution is complex.
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - VonGallifrey 1y ago
      How exactly do you suggest that a country like Germany (since Germanys inaction was the topic of this thread) reach those goals? How does Germany end the blockade of Gaza? How does Germany end apartheid in the West Bank? Just because I can’t do anything to improve the situation does not mean that I am in favour of the status quo. That does not make me evil either.
      - Cyph0n 1y ago
        Are you seriously asking me this question, or is this an attempt at a rhetorical? And why are we shifting the goalposts once again? How do you think apartheid South Africa ended? How does any country pressure another? In a supposedly democratic nation like Germany, how would citizens pressure their government to stop supporting & providing diplomatic cover for another to commit a genocide & maintain apartheid?
      - ath3nd 1y ago
        > Just because I can’t do anything to improve the situation does not mean that I am in favour of the status quo. That does not make me evil either. It does. The Germans who stood aside when the Nazis rose to power and the soldiers just "executing orders" were as much to blame for the rise of Hitler as the ones supporting it. Not taking a side against evil is taking evil's side. And you of all peoples should have learned from your history. Genocide is bad. > How does Germany end apartheid in the West Bank? By applying pressure on the international community to boycott Israel. Same way Germany is applying pressure on the international community to boycott Russia.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > idea that the injustice & domination should continue because there is no clear cut solution is pure evil It’s prioritisation. There are multiple horrible civil wars, rebellions and displacements happening around the world right now. Every person doesn’t need to have a position on each one; there is an argument that’s counterproductive. (Exhibit A: the Columbia protests.)
      - Cyph0n 1y ago
        Since you brought up the Columbia protests and general dissent inside the US: how many such conflicts and genocides are directly backed and propped up by the US?
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > how many such conflicts and genocides are directly backed and propped up by the US? Fewer than you’d think [1]. (We send aid to Sudan and are practically uninvolved in Myanmar.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_confli...
        Cyph0n 1y ago
        Well, that’s my point. This is the only major ongoing conflict where the US and major Western powers are virtually unconditionally backing the “bad guys”. So it makes sense that there would be more attention and pushback on this one versus others.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Hmm, thank you. Hadn’t considered that. (It’s interesting because it requires disentangling anti-American sentiments from the equation.)
      - computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
    - dizlexic 1y ago
      The idea that Isreal is occupying the west bank and or Gaza goes back to the 1967 6 day war and has jack all to do with Palestinian borders real or imaginary. Those lands were the property of Jordan and Egypt...
      - Cyph0n 1y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 1y ago
        Can you please stop posting flamewar comments? It's against the site guidelines because it destroys the curious conversation we're trying for. I know that topic is both important and activating, but that makes it more important, not less, to stick to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Instead, please make your substantive points thoughtfully, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are.
        Cyph0n 1y ago
        Was the problem with my comment the use of profanity? I did not insult the commenter, nor did I make any ad hominem attacks. I don’t see any rules against profanity in general, or the use of profanity to respond to an argument. I also took the time to clarify why the argument is “bullshit”. But maybe I am missing something.
        dang 1y ago
        Not profanity per se, but if you lead with "Bullshit." then you're already well into aggressive flamewar mode. "You can try all you want to erase [etc.]" is a form of personal attack. You don't need that.
        Cyph0n 1y ago
        Got it, I will dial it down a bit then :)
MrJohz 1y ago
As someone living in Germany, that philosophy of "we don't have the right to intervene or say anything" is definitely embedded in the culture here. Obviously there are plenty of people who don't follow this philosophy, and there are left-wing pro-Palestine movements here as well, but overall there's a big cultural sense of obligation to Israel due to Germany's history. A friend of mine even ended up talking to a German diplomat in Israel, who said much the same thing: they could cosign other nations' condemnations of Israeli actions when they happened, but they couldn't condemn Israeli actions unilaterally. Obviously that was just his opinion and not an official viewpoint of the German government, but I found it fascinating that Germany still felt this sense of needing to make things right to Israel specifically.
- Cyph0n 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - lostlogin 1y ago
    Weird take. When does it end? Do you feel guilt and hold your tongue on subjects where your country has a history of doing bad? What’s the time limit? 100 years? 10000?
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      They’re rabidly and actively supporting & covering for a genocide, and have been working tirelessly to suppress all internal dissent to this position (good old Stasi days peeking from under the covers). Further, they’re going to lengths no other European country is going to in pursuit of this goal of covering for a genocide, all out of national guilt? It is a delusional position to take. Now, if they actually were holding their tongue on this instead of providing unconditional support and cover, no one would be bringing up that these are the grandchildren of Nazis lecturing us about the right thing to do here :)
  - ath3nd 1y ago
    > Germany is the absolute last country on this planet to lecture the rest of us on how to criticize Israel What a bad take. Germany, if it learned its lessons from the Holocaust, which was a genocide they did on the Jewish population, is absolutely the FIRST country in the world to teach Israel that what it's doing is absolutely abhorrent. Don't repeat my mistakes, so to say.

Cyph0n 1y ago

No, there is nothing “complex” about Gaza - neither before nor after Oct 7. The late Michael Brooks shared a small thought experiment that might help elucidate this: https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q https://youtu.be/7ebPj_FqM5Q

VonGallifrey 1y ago
It’s one thing to call the situation “nothing complex”, but there was no solution in this clip. Usually when people call something complex they mean that the solution is complex.
- Cyph0n 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - VonGallifrey 1y ago
    How exactly do you suggest that a country like Germany (since Germanys inaction was the topic of this thread) reach those goals? How does Germany end the blockade of Gaza? How does Germany end apartheid in the West Bank? Just because I can’t do anything to improve the situation does not mean that I am in favour of the status quo. That does not make me evil either.
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      Are you seriously asking me this question, or is this an attempt at a rhetorical? And why are we shifting the goalposts once again? How do you think apartheid South Africa ended? How does any country pressure another? In a supposedly democratic nation like Germany, how would citizens pressure their government to stop supporting & providing diplomatic cover for another to commit a genocide & maintain apartheid?
    - ath3nd 1y ago
      > Just because I can’t do anything to improve the situation does not mean that I am in favour of the status quo. That does not make me evil either. It does. The Germans who stood aside when the Nazis rose to power and the soldiers just "executing orders" were as much to blame for the rise of Hitler as the ones supporting it. Not taking a side against evil is taking evil's side. And you of all peoples should have learned from your history. Genocide is bad. > How does Germany end apartheid in the West Bank? By applying pressure on the international community to boycott Israel. Same way Germany is applying pressure on the international community to boycott Russia.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > idea that the injustice & domination should continue because there is no clear cut solution is pure evil It’s prioritisation. There are multiple horrible civil wars, rebellions and displacements happening around the world right now. Every person doesn’t need to have a position on each one; there is an argument that’s counterproductive. (Exhibit A: the Columbia protests.)
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      Since you brought up the Columbia protests and general dissent inside the US: how many such conflicts and genocides are directly backed and propped up by the US?
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > how many such conflicts and genocides are directly backed and propped up by the US? Fewer than you’d think [1]. (We send aid to Sudan and are practically uninvolved in Myanmar.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_confli...
        Cyph0n 1y ago
        Well, that’s my point. This is the only major ongoing conflict where the US and major Western powers are virtually unconditionally backing the “bad guys”. So it makes sense that there would be more attention and pushback on this one versus others.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Hmm, thank you. Hadn’t considered that. (It’s interesting because it requires disentangling anti-American sentiments from the equation.)
    - computerthings 1y ago
      [dead]
  - dizlexic 1y ago
    The idea that Isreal is occupying the west bank and or Gaza goes back to the 1967 6 day war and has jack all to do with Palestinian borders real or imaginary. Those lands were the property of Jordan and Egypt...
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 1y ago
        Can you please stop posting flamewar comments? It's against the site guidelines because it destroys the curious conversation we're trying for. I know that topic is both important and activating, but that makes it more important, not less, to stick to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Instead, please make your substantive points thoughtfully, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are.
        Cyph0n 1y ago
        Was the problem with my comment the use of profanity? I did not insult the commenter, nor did I make any ad hominem attacks. I don’t see any rules against profanity in general, or the use of profanity to respond to an argument. I also took the time to clarify why the argument is “bullshit”. But maybe I am missing something.
        dang 1y ago
        Not profanity per se, but if you lead with "Bullshit." then you're already well into aggressive flamewar mode. "You can try all you want to erase [etc.]" is a form of personal attack. You don't need that.
        Cyph0n 1y ago
        Got it, I will dial it down a bit then :)

MrJohz 1y ago

As someone living in Germany, that philosophy of "we don't have the right to intervene or say anything" is definitely embedded in the culture here. Obviously there are plenty of people who don't follow this philosophy, and there are left-wing pro-Palestine movements here as well, but overall there's a big cultural sense of obligation to Israel due to Germany's history. A friend of mine even ended up talking to a German diplomat in Israel, who said much the same thing: they could cosign other nations' condemnations of Israeli actions when they happened, but they couldn't condemn Israeli actions unilaterally. Obviously that was just his opinion and not an official viewpoint of the German government, but I found it fascinating that Germany still felt this sense of needing to make things right to Israel specifically.

Cyph0n 1y ago
[flagged]
- lostlogin 1y ago
  Weird take. When does it end? Do you feel guilt and hold your tongue on subjects where your country has a history of doing bad? What’s the time limit? 100 years? 10000?
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
    They’re rabidly and actively supporting & covering for a genocide, and have been working tirelessly to suppress all internal dissent to this position (good old Stasi days peeking from under the covers). Further, they’re going to lengths no other European country is going to in pursuit of this goal of covering for a genocide, all out of national guilt? It is a delusional position to take. Now, if they actually were holding their tongue on this instead of providing unconditional support and cover, no one would be bringing up that these are the grandchildren of Nazis lecturing us about the right thing to do here :)
- ath3nd 1y ago
  > Germany is the absolute last country on this planet to lecture the rest of us on how to criticize Israel What a bad take. Germany, if it learned its lessons from the Holocaust, which was a genocide they did on the Jewish population, is absolutely the FIRST country in the world to teach Israel that what it's doing is absolutely abhorrent. Don't repeat my mistakes, so to say.