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It's a state founded on ethnic cleansing. People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves. In late 1947, their mili
by Newtonip 1y ago
It's a state founded on ethnic cleansing. People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves.
In late 1947, their militias begun a campaign of massacring and expelling Palestinians from mostly defenseless villages. These refuges pouring into neighboring Arab countries is what prompted the 1948 war. When the war ended, they murdered any civilians trying to return to their homes.
Gaza was originally a refugee camp created for receiving these expelled people.
The ethnic cleansing and denial of rights has continued ever since. The current Gaza war is not when the crimes against humanity started. Israel has been commiting crimes against humanity throughout its entire existence.
- avip 1y agoMany states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. (excuse me for ignoring the history trolling)
- breakyerself 1y agoA right to exist doesn't justify a million other things that are completely unacceptable about the Israeli state.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago[flagged]
- polynomial 1y agoIt's a popular opinion these days, all the cool kids are doing it
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> It's a popular opinion these days Westerners with no connection to the Middle East deciding they know best for the people actually there has been a popular opinion for a long time.
- bigyabai 1y agoSuspiciously consistent with the Israeli-connected Americans who deliberately minimize the significance of issues in Lebanon and Syria. Annexing one's neighbors sure fosters some queer international consequences.
- vFunct 1y ago[flagged]
- avip 1y agoWait are you calling me "European"? This is honestly insulting. Would you please apologize on-record or edit that out? Thanks
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- vFunct 1y ago[flagged]
- eastbound 1y ago> In any case, Israel doesn't even have the right to exist It does: UN resolution, 1967. That you do not recognize an entire state to exist is an admission to preparing a genocide. The fact that 4 countries around Israel are preparing genocide justifies Israel’s measures are reasonable to maintain peace. What is reasonable? Well it’s not like Gaza didn’t start the shooting with 7000 rockets pre-October festival (I was myself surprised that Israel didn’t respond pre-October). Those rockets were indiscriminate against population centers, each of them were a war crime. So it’s reasonable to reduce the neighbor’s ability to wage war to dust. Are the Gazans exempt from responsibility of their state’s actions? To answer, we need to check whether the Hamas was imposed to the Gazans or whether they voted for it and, in a broader sense, whether the Gazans wish the genocide of Israel. It turns out the 2006 elections were almost the last ones in Gaza, and that’s when the Hamas was elected (and the opponents were not better). So the Gazans are aligned with the actions performed by the collective group of their nation, it’s not a small group of extremists, it represents the will of the nation, and therefore the facilities and support network of the Hamas are part of the war logistics, and deserves to be reduced to dust. Did Israel act with restraint? Israel has the nuclear bomb and has enough power to genocide if they want. The fact that they perform spot actions instead of sweeping actions is proof that Israel tries to discriminate the military, its support network with genocide intent against Israel (=pretty much everyone) and tries to spare the innocents, is proof that Israel is not committing a genocide.
- Newtonip 1y ago> Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". So what? I don't get your point. Israel has continuously been oppressing the Palestinians for almost 80 years. That is immoral. Israel is in the wrong. > They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens. You are just jumping to a different topic. I said nothing about its right to exist.
- dingnuts 1y ago[flagged]
- Newtonip 1y agoThat's not entirely true but your are changing the subject. Have the Palestinians been ethnically cleansed? Yes or no? Have they been oppressed for almost 80 years? Yes or no?
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoNo and yes. What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. To the extent there is an argument maximally antithetical to that cause, it’s arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist.
- lormayna 1y ago> What Palestinians need is what Israelis got: a state. Palestinians had several opportunities to get that, especially with Oslo agreements, but their leadership refused that everytime.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> their leadership refused that everytime I don’t think it’s fair to extend that to “Palestinians had several opportunities.”
- sillyfluke 1y agoReally? Is this why the world does not recognize the north part of Cyprus despite Turkish Cypriots not butchering any Greeks south of the border since 1974, when they unilaterally declared independence? Please name some other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" and embraced by the international community and educate the rest of us. And please don't include previously warring peoples whose leaders agreed on a population exchange and imposed that mandatory trauma on their own people. Palestine, Cyprus, and India had the unenviable luck of being long-term victims of a last gasp British empire's farewell divide-and-conquer gambit. (and excuse me for ignoring the deflection trolling)
- breppp 1y ago> Please name some other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" and embraced by the international community and educate the rest of us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istanbul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istan... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria_(1950%E2%80%931951) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exodus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian%E2%80%93Dalmatian_exod... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_expulsion_of_Italians_from_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_expulsion_of_Italians_fro... It was quite common and very accepted method in the 1940s, hell, expelling 15 million germans, some living there for hundreds of years, was proposed by Churchill. The reason you never heard about the rest of these is because the people were resettled, not kept in a state of permanent inheritable refugee state financed by the UN with financial incentives to be kept that way.
- sillyfluke 1y ago>Please name some of other countries post-WW2 that were "founded by ethnic cleansing" (proceeds to list examples of countries which were already founded before the ethnic cleansing events they mention or events I already alluded to) It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to list Libyans expelling italians as a comparable example, when Libya was a colony of Italy. Ditto Germans, a people of belonging to the aggressor country. Bulgaria declared independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1908. And you have to explain why you included the pakistan link, as I already mentioned it in my post.
- breppp 1y ago[flagged]
- arp242 1y agoThe difference is that e.g. Māori or native Americans and whatnot are full citizens with full rights. The "founded on ethnic cleansing" is not the most important bit from the previous post. It's the "ethnic cleansing and denial of rights has continued ever since" that's the most important bit.
- breppp 1y agoNo, the difference is that the native population of western countries very much disappeared, because this was an actual genocide their percent of population is now negligible. While the Palestinian population in Israel proper is around 25% with full rights, while those under the control of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas have rights in their respective political entity. Again there are other examples of countries where the population lost all rights and were expelled like germans in czechoslovakia and poland or greeks from turkey
- arp242 1y ago> the native population of western countries very much disappeared That's simply not true. It's very obviously not true. Are you denying that Māoris and Native Americans exist today? I cannot phantom why you would say such obvious nonsense. I no longer believe you are engaging in good faith. Good day.
- cmilton 1y ago[flagged]
- kennywinker 1y agoThere were hundreds of Palestinians held by the IDF without charges on Oct 6th. What’s another word for “held without charges”? Yes it’s hostage. There were 3 days of idf bombing in gaza in september 2023. Bringing up “hostages” as a reason for anything is a lie, a distortion, and a laundering of genocide.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> Bringing up “hostages” as a reason for anything is a lie, a distortion, and a laundering of genocide One siding a war between Netanyahu and Hamas is a lie, distortion and laundering of atrocities.
- kennywinker 1y agoSuch weird framing. Netanyahu is not supported by all israelis, no question. But israeli isn’t a dictatorship - the actions of the state have been varying degrees of genocide and ethnic cleansing for 75+ years, and pinning that all on one man is bonkers. Do you also consider the war in Iraq a war between Bush and the Ba’ath? Calling what I said “one siding” is similarly bonkers. My point is just to be consistent with the actions of both sides: israel had hostages before oct 7th - if hamas hostages are justification for mass murder of palestinian civilians, then israeli hostages before oct 7th justify the oct 7th attacks. To say otherwise is to one-side the situation. To be clear: i don’t believe that hostages justify killing civilians. Doesn’t matter who’s hostages they are.
- cmilton 1y agoIt’s not justifying killing civilians. It is justified for Israel to attempt to get their kidnapped citizens back. Hamas could minimize this, but you and I both know that maximizing Palestinian death is their preference.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves Including a sizeable Jewish minority. The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region. But it’s a continuation of outsiders (in particular Westerners, though the Iranians also bought this settler-colonialist nonsense which led to their recent miscalculations) with no connection to the land drawing up broad moral claims for how the Middle East should be divided up.
- pphysch 1y agoThere's plenty of videos of orthodox Jewish people getting brutalized in public by Israeli government thugs. There are many Jewish voices that oppose the genocide. Please don't conflate Judaism with a violent project of political extremism, even though the latter uses the former cynically as a "human shield".
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> Please don't conflate Judaism with a violent project of political extremism I’m not. I’m arguing that one can oppose what’s happening in Gaza without careening into counterproductiveness and calling for the destruction of Israel.
- pphysch 1y agoA state named "Israel" is not a prerequisite for Jewish people to live peacefully anywhere. In fact, it appears to be the opposite, based on historical fact. There are also Jewish communities that live peacefully with dignity in Iran.
- edanm 1y ago> A state named "Israel" is not a prerequisite for Jewish people to live peacefully anywhere. In fact, it appears to be the opposite, based on historical fact. Whatever else you think, this is some massive misunderstanding of history. Historically, the lack of a state for Jews was one of the main reasons Jews experienced the Holocaust, which originated the term Genocide. Half of the Jewish population, making up (iirc) 90% of the population of Europe, died, because they had nowhere else to go. And of the ones that survived, they still had nowhere else to go, no one wanted to take them in. The only place they could go, and what was agreed to worldwide, was to go to then-Palestine. Then, the hundreds of thousands of Jews "living peacefully" in Arab countries were ethnically cleansed from their countries, which they'd lived in for generations, and also largely had nowhere to go except Palestine.
- dylan604 1y ago> People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves. Isn't that just history repeating itself? Even in the old testament, they had to clear the current inhabitants of their promised land after wander the desert for 40 years.
- throwaway48476 1y agoArcheology suggests biblical Israel was actually a federation of tribes, some of which were enemies in early parts of the Bible. For example, the philistines which became one of the 12 tribes and also are the origin of the term Palestinian.
- breppp 1y agoThey never became an Israeli tribe, they were a people of a foreign origin, probably greek. They have disappeared from history after they were exiled by the babylonians, like most people of the area of that time.
- blablabla123 1y agoI don't think it's possible to understand the whole issue without taking into account how people fled into Israel, both because of genocide in Europe as well as prosecution in multi-ethnic yet predominantly Arab states. Germany being in an awkward position of being an economically dominant state but also having contributed to the whole misery. Also the US is far from neutral probably due to deeper ties that are just part of reality. You cannot undo the past but I don't think it's possible to unroll the whole problem without properly confronting it. The increasingly horrific escalations have obviously completely detached from any reason
- Bilal_io 1y agoThey fled into Palestine*, and later established the state of Israel. Saying they fled into Israel assumes there was an Israel to begin with, but there wasn't.
- blablabla123 1y agoYes, it was a British colony... Either way, the vast majority moved there after the state was established. And yes, most suffered prosecution around the world including Arab countries. Pogroms against Jews are documented since centuries.
- trhway 1y ago[flagged]
- alkyon 1y agoMaybe because it happened 1000 years ago and there are people being killed in Gaza at this very moment?
- trhway 1y agoPeople being killed in Gaza are the colonizers isn't it? In addition to being colonizers they clearly declared the goal of performing ethnic cleansing of Jews, and proved that it isn't just words by perpetrating genocide of Jews on October 7. You nicely sidestepped the case of US where Native people are still fighting for their rights and would be killed the same way if they try to perpetrate against Non-Native Americans the things like October 7. Palestinians perpetrated October 7, Native Americans don't do such things, thus no surprise that the situation is different. >Maybe because it happened 1000 years ago So, how old or recent it should be for you to dismiss or not an ethnic cleansing?
- alkyon 1y agoYour whole argumentation is flawed with gross intellectual dishonesty. I'm talking Gaza genocide that is happening here and now - but your argumentation is like 'But what about Hannibal's atrocities in 216 B.C.?'. I don't deny other peoples were colonized and decimated in the process (like Native Americans obviously) -- their fate and suffering IS important, however it does not have any bearing on what is happening now in Gaza Strip.