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I will stop thinking that this conflict is a war when there will be a side in it that doesn't have the motivation to take over all the land, and acts towards it

by yoavm 1y ago

I will stop thinking that this conflict is a war when there will be a side in it that doesn't have the motivation to take over all the land, and acts towards it by attempting to kill the other. As long as there are two parties that are constantly trying to kill each other, I call that a war. As I wrote elsewhere - that doesn't mean I disagree with the idea that genocidal actions are being taken during this war. Your comment about Jews in Ghetto is wrong at every possible level. Jews were killed in the Holocaust _without_ a conflict, _without_ attempting to kill Germans, _without_ fighting with anyone over the land and _without_ having any aspirations to control the other. That is an example of a situation where there is no war, and no, it has nothing to do with the situation between Israelis and Palestinians.

hedora 1y ago
There were more than 100 armed jewish uprisings in Germany during WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_in_German-occupied_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_in_German-oc... Going through your criteria in order: Of course they defended themselves, including attempts to kill Nazis. They also attempted to keep their homes, and certainly would have rather Germany have different leadership Does that somehow mean the concentration camps were a "war"?
- earnestinger 1y ago
  I think the parent meant there were no shooting before the genocide started. Jewish resistances were reactive to nazi actions. I.e. there was not even a possibility that nazis were defending. While somebody from Palestine side did fire the opening salvo on oct7.
  - fzil 1y ago
    > While somebody from Palestine side did fire the opening salvo on oct7. Now, that's a re-writing of history if I've ever seen one. > Israeli and Palestinian deaths preceding the 2023 Gaza war. Of the Palestinian deaths 5,360 were in Gaza, 1,007 in the West Bank, 37 in Israel. Most were civilians on both sides. Quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict_in_2023 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%... See the chart on the top right with the orange bars
    - earnestinger 1y ago
      I do understand that it was not the first first salvo. And that blockading policy and financing of anything but fatah and bunch of other stuff influenced today situation. But you must admit that oct 7 was unusual escalation. Which now are used as the reason for current idf actions.
alkyon 1y ago
Stop telling lies about Gaza conflict being "war". Israeli military has absolute superiority over Palestinians. What it is is a genocidal campaign meant to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Also, stop using the Holocaust as a propaganda tool. My grandfather happened to be a Buchenwald concentration camp survival. It didn't give him or anybody else any right to violate Geneva convention.
- yoavm 1y ago
  First, I don't recall you set the rules for discussion here. Now, to your points: 1. Genocidal actions can take place in a war, and no definition of a war ever said that the parties have to be of equal strength. Every war that was ever won by one side or another had some sort of power supremacy. Go read the legal definition for genocide and you'll learn that the question of imbalance of power plays absolutely no role in it. 2. I haven't used it as a propaganda tool, and in fact it wasn't me who brought it up at all. I was only commenting that the current situation in Gaza is not comparable to the Holocaust, and I fully stand behind it. To make it clear, I am very happy that it isn't comparable, and I wouldn't want to see any Palestinian suffering like my ancestors did. Not once in my life have I used it to justify crimes committed by Jews, so please learn to read before commenting on my posts. If anything, I always believed that what Jews went through should serve as a reminder for us to never allow things like that from happening again, and I still see the Holocaust as perhaps one of the main driving forces in my opposition to this war.
  - alkyon 1y ago
    I didn't mention any HN rules, so you're mainly arguing with yourself. Shooting at mothers trying to get humanitarian aid for their starving children does not fulfil any definition of war I am aware of. Read history books yourself. Once one side of a war becomes dominant, it just ends. Unless it is not really a war but a hideous genocide campaign cynically carried out by Israeli government under the pretext of self-defensive war.
    - earnestinger 1y ago
      > Once one side of a war becomes dominant, it just ends. Sorry for being pedanto, but other side must stop resisting for war to end. Guerrilla warfare is quite usual when there is great power imbalance.

by yoavm 1y ago

hedora 1y ago

There were more than 100 armed jewish uprisings in Germany during WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_in_German-occupied_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_in_German-oc... Going through your criteria in order: Of course they defended themselves, including attempts to kill Nazis. They also attempted to keep their homes, and certainly would have rather Germany have different leadership Does that somehow mean the concentration camps were a "war"?

earnestinger 1y ago
I think the parent meant there were no shooting before the genocide started. Jewish resistances were reactive to nazi actions. I.e. there was not even a possibility that nazis were defending. While somebody from Palestine side did fire the opening salvo on oct7.
- fzil 1y ago
  > While somebody from Palestine side did fire the opening salvo on oct7. Now, that's a re-writing of history if I've ever seen one. > Israeli and Palestinian deaths preceding the 2023 Gaza war. Of the Palestinian deaths 5,360 were in Gaza, 1,007 in the West Bank, 37 in Israel. Most were civilians on both sides. Quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict_in_2023 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%... See the chart on the top right with the orange bars
  - earnestinger 1y ago
    I do understand that it was not the first first salvo. And that blockading policy and financing of anything but fatah and bunch of other stuff influenced today situation. But you must admit that oct 7 was unusual escalation. Which now are used as the reason for current idf actions.

alkyon 1y ago

Stop telling lies about Gaza conflict being "war". Israeli military has absolute superiority over Palestinians. What it is is a genocidal campaign meant to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Also, stop using the Holocaust as a propaganda tool. My grandfather happened to be a Buchenwald concentration camp survival. It didn't give him or anybody else any right to violate Geneva convention.

yoavm 1y ago
First, I don't recall you set the rules for discussion here. Now, to your points: 1. Genocidal actions can take place in a war, and no definition of a war ever said that the parties have to be of equal strength. Every war that was ever won by one side or another had some sort of power supremacy. Go read the legal definition for genocide and you'll learn that the question of imbalance of power plays absolutely no role in it. 2. I haven't used it as a propaganda tool, and in fact it wasn't me who brought it up at all. I was only commenting that the current situation in Gaza is not comparable to the Holocaust, and I fully stand behind it. To make it clear, I am very happy that it isn't comparable, and I wouldn't want to see any Palestinian suffering like my ancestors did. Not once in my life have I used it to justify crimes committed by Jews, so please learn to read before commenting on my posts. If anything, I always believed that what Jews went through should serve as a reminder for us to never allow things like that from happening again, and I still see the Holocaust as perhaps one of the main driving forces in my opposition to this war.
- alkyon 1y ago
  I didn't mention any HN rules, so you're mainly arguing with yourself. Shooting at mothers trying to get humanitarian aid for their starving children does not fulfil any definition of war I am aware of. Read history books yourself. Once one side of a war becomes dominant, it just ends. Unless it is not really a war but a hideous genocide campaign cynically carried out by Israeli government under the pretext of self-defensive war.
  - earnestinger 1y ago
    > Once one side of a war becomes dominant, it just ends. Sorry for being pedanto, but other side must stop resisting for war to end. Guerrilla warfare is quite usual when there is great power imbalance.