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Even ignoring primary crimes, under Israeli law, even incitement to genocide is punishable by death. But so many members of the political and media elite have m

by ajb 1y ago

Even ignoring primary crimes, under Israeli law, even incitement to genocide is punishable by death. But so many members of the political and media elite have made inciting statements, that the rubicon is crossed; the political class cannot allow any serious, independent consideration of war crimes to ever occur, because that would risk them all facing the firing squad. This in turn signals to individual soldiers that there will be no accountability, even in the absence of directives.

roshin 1y ago
Regarding the risk to Israelis facing the firing squad, you do know that Israel only executed Eichmann (and one other person in a field court) since the founding of the country? When it comes to the list of things that Israelis fear, being sentenced to a firing squad is very low down.
- ajb 1y ago
  Fair enough, but I don't think that makes the incentive much different. If you are convicted of a crime punishable by death, your actual punishment is not likely to be trivial.
- throw9032093 1y ago
  Government and regime can always change. Post socialist countries convinced border guards, for shooting unarmed civilians, who were trying to escape across country borders. That was a crime even under socialist laws. If Israel had regime change, new regime and majority of voters would be pro Arab... New government could actually enforce existing laws!
- ruined 1y ago
  israel executes plenty of people. maybe if it’s done by the military it doesnt count https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Gaza_war#Summary_executions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Gaza... https://web.archive.org/web/20240104213949/https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231226-euro-med-submits-findings-on-israeli-army-executions-in-gaza-to-icc-un-calling-them-genocide/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240104213949/https://www.middl... https://web.archive.org/web/20240424005326/https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876 https://web.archive.org/web/20240424005326/https://news.un.o... https://web.archive.org/web/20240409122432/https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240409122432/https://thehill.c... https://archive.is/UJb6g https://archive.is/UJb6g
rbanffy 1y ago
> even incitement to genocide is punishable by death For that to happen, the government, and the overall population, would need to consider what's being done in Gaza and on the West Bank to actually be a genocide. I don't think popular support for that actually exists in Israel. Last time I checked, most of the population supported the annexation of Gaza and the forced eviction of the local population to neighboring countries. I don't think I'll live to see a two-state solution.
- ajb 1y ago
  You may be missing a legal wrinkle: the crime of incitement usually does not require the underlying primary crime to actually occur. (Admittedly I'm not sure if that is the definition in Israel, but they inherited a lot of British law so it is likely). So this does not require the Israeli population to accept that this was a genocide, only that some war crimes occurred and that they should be prosecuted. Right now they are not there, but the point is that the government has an incentive to keep the population in that state.
- cma 1y ago
  There isn't popular support for it when you factor in the Israeli-Palestian but in opinion polling it has now gone beyond 50% among the rest of the Israeli population.
ethbr1 1y ago
Where I hope this comes back, after the conflict and a new Israel government, is human culpability for automated systems. AI being whitewashing for IP is disruptive and troubling. It being whitewashing for war crimes is a much more serious problem. If Israel/IDF put in place a automated system that gave effectively caused war crimes to be committed, some humans in positions of power need to be held responsible and face consequences. The world should not allow cases where (a) it's undisputed that war crimes occurred but (b) authority was interwoven in an automated system in such a way that humans escape consequences. Sadly, it'll probably take the fall of right-wing Israeli and current Russian governments to have a hope of passing through.
- vkou 1y ago
  > is human culpability for automated systems. Human culpability for crimes committed by large human systems isn't ever going to happen. I wouldn't hold my breath for the automated ones.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    As with most international law, the two most likely originations are either (a) mutual self-interest (e.g. chemical weapons) or (b) horrendous and inhumane abuse. I expect with the first first-world drone war on a third-world country, there might be pressure at the UN to put something in place. At least for the automating genocide case.

by ajb 1y ago

roshin 1y ago

Regarding the risk to Israelis facing the firing squad, you do know that Israel only executed Eichmann (and one other person in a field court) since the founding of the country? When it comes to the list of things that Israelis fear, being sentenced to a firing squad is very low down.

ajb 1y ago
Fair enough, but I don't think that makes the incentive much different. If you are convicted of a crime punishable by death, your actual punishment is not likely to be trivial.
throw9032093 1y ago
Government and regime can always change. Post socialist countries convinced border guards, for shooting unarmed civilians, who were trying to escape across country borders. That was a crime even under socialist laws. If Israel had regime change, new regime and majority of voters would be pro Arab... New government could actually enforce existing laws!
ruined 1y ago
israel executes plenty of people. maybe if it’s done by the military it doesnt count https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Gaza_war#Summary_executions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Gaza... https://web.archive.org/web/20240104213949/https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231226-euro-med-submits-findings-on-israeli-army-executions-in-gaza-to-icc-un-calling-them-genocide/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240104213949/https://www.middl... https://web.archive.org/web/20240424005326/https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876 https://web.archive.org/web/20240424005326/https://news.un.o... https://web.archive.org/web/20240409122432/https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240409122432/https://thehill.c... https://archive.is/UJb6g https://archive.is/UJb6g

rbanffy 1y ago

> even incitement to genocide is punishable by death For that to happen, the government, and the overall population, would need to consider what's being done in Gaza and on the West Bank to actually be a genocide. I don't think popular support for that actually exists in Israel. Last time I checked, most of the population supported the annexation of Gaza and the forced eviction of the local population to neighboring countries. I don't think I'll live to see a two-state solution.

ajb 1y ago
You may be missing a legal wrinkle: the crime of incitement usually does not require the underlying primary crime to actually occur. (Admittedly I'm not sure if that is the definition in Israel, but they inherited a lot of British law so it is likely). So this does not require the Israeli population to accept that this was a genocide, only that some war crimes occurred and that they should be prosecuted. Right now they are not there, but the point is that the government has an incentive to keep the population in that state.
cma 1y ago
There isn't popular support for it when you factor in the Israeli-Palestian but in opinion polling it has now gone beyond 50% among the rest of the Israeli population.

ethbr1 1y ago

Where I hope this comes back, after the conflict and a new Israel government, is human culpability for automated systems. AI being whitewashing for IP is disruptive and troubling. It being whitewashing for war crimes is a much more serious problem. If Israel/IDF put in place a automated system that gave effectively caused war crimes to be committed, some humans in positions of power need to be held responsible and face consequences. The world should not allow cases where (a) it's undisputed that war crimes occurred but (b) authority was interwoven in an automated system in such a way that humans escape consequences. Sadly, it'll probably take the fall of right-wing Israeli and current Russian governments to have a hope of passing through.

vkou 1y ago
> is human culpability for automated systems. Human culpability for crimes committed by large human systems isn't ever going to happen. I wouldn't hold my breath for the automated ones.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  As with most international law, the two most likely originations are either (a) mutual self-interest (e.g. chemical weapons) or (b) horrendous and inhumane abuse. I expect with the first first-world drone war on a third-world country, there might be pressure at the UN to put something in place. At least for the automating genocide case.