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From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reaso

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The current government certainly doesn't want that, and I have no idea what part of the Palestinians would want that. 3) Continue to treat them as sub-human, and deal with the consequences of the hatred that fosters. That seems to have been the "strategy" before October last year. 4) Try to exterminate or exile them, or at least decimating them to such an extend that the problem becomes smaller. Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy.

msgodel 1y ago
You'd think given Israel's history they'd do everything they could to not make 4) acceptable.
- tradethedelta 1y ago
  I think it's the contrary. "Never again" means by any means necessary we will prevent another genocide of our people, even if it means committing genocide unto others. That much has become clear.
- ben_w 1y ago
  It's very common for people to treat their own side as naturally right, and excuse anything their side does, simply *because* it is their own side. For a commonplace example, look at a soccer match, fans screaming at the referee whenever a decision doesn't go their team's way.
- easyThrowaway 1y ago
  I don't think there's much overlapping between those who experienced the holocaust and whoever is in charge in Israel right now. Speaking for experience from some relatives, the immigration laws for people of jewish faith and ancestry were nigh insurmountable if you came from african, arab or middle east countries and pretty much just nominal even in recent times for those who had even a remote connection but came from the US and the UK. I have the feeling they are jewish the same way Henry IV was a Catholic when he said "Paris is well worth a Mass".
- ndiddy 1y ago
  Many of the Zionists viewed the Holocaust as teaching that the Jewish people need a state of their own, no matter what it takes or how many people they have to kill. They viewed the European Jews who had died in the Holocaust as weak, passive cowards who had "allowed" the Holocaust to happen, and went like sheep to their slaughter (ignoring the Warsaw Uprising, and all of the underground Jewish resistance movements). I think Israel's current actions reflect this viewpoint.
- meansob 1y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- int_19h 1y ago
  I suggest reading this 1923 essay by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, one of the early figures in the history of Israel and the Zionist movement, before Israel became a state. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot > There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. ... > The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. ... Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators. This is equally true of the Arabs. Our Peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine , in return for cultural and economic advantages. ... > We may tell them whatever we like about the innocence of our aims, watering them down and sweetening them with honeyed words to make them palatable, but they know what we want, as well as we know what they do not want. Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel." ... Colonisation can have only one aim, and Palestine Arabs cannot accept this aim. > We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. Now, Jabotinsky was arguably naive in that he thought that after the inevitable forcing of the Arabs to accept Jewish colonization of their homeland, once they have "given up on all hopes", they could be negotiated with on the terms of settlement: > In the second place, this does not mean that there cannot be any agreement with the Palestine Arabs. What is impossible is a voluntary agreement. As long as the Arabs feel that there is the least hope of getting rid of us, they will refuse to give up this hope in return for either kind words or for bread and butter, because they are not a rabble, but a living people. And when a living people yields in matters of such a vital character it is only when there is no longer any hope of getting rid of us, because they can make no breach in the iron wall. Not till then will they drop their extremist leaders, whose watchword is "Never!" And the leadership will pass to the moderate groups, who will approach us with a proposal that we should both agree to mutual concessions. Then we may expect them to discuss honestly practical questions, such as a guarantee against Arab displacement, or equal rights for Arab citizen, or Arab national integrity. The problem, of course, is that once you have that amount of upper hand over someone, you don't actually have to negotiate. You can just keep taking everything you want, by force. And that is exactly where Israel found itself in the long term.
wordofx 1y ago
[flagged]
rgblambda 1y ago
>Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation As the Palestinians are the majority, the Jewish Israelis would become a minority in terms of citizens and votes. This is very much akin to Apartheid South Africa, where a minority ethnic group rules over the rest of the population.
- yoavm 1y ago
  The White minority in South Africa were around 15% of the population, while Jews and Palestinians in Israel & Palestine seem to be much more around a 50%-50% split.
  - rgblambda 1y ago
    Yes, and I should have clarified that the Palestinian majority is a lot slimmer than was the case in South Africa. Although there remains the case of 700,000 Palestinian refugees who (in the hypothetical scenario of a unified state) would tilt the balance further if allowed to return to their/their parents homes or given property as compensation for repossessed homes.
xorcist 1y ago
Or exile is probably the key word. There are more historical examples of exoduses than genocides. The problem with understanding this situation is that it probably has more to do with Israel's internal politics than what the situation looks like on the ground in Gaza and elsewhere. Just a quick read from the wikipedia page should give an idea just how corrupt the situation really is. There's also the fact that Palestinians aren't a homogenous group in any sense of the word. That makes it hard for them to unite under any political flag. It also doesn't help that the borders are all closed, from both sides, and no neighboring country are willing to accept them. From the outside the situation certainly looks very bleak.
edanm 1y ago
[flagged]
- amanaplanacanal 1y ago
  Gaza was governed by Hamas under an Israeli blockade. You don't think that had any effect on Gaza lives?
  - edanm 1y ago
    (An Israeli and Egyptian blockade) Yes, I do think it had an effect, but less of one than their governing body did, hence my saying so. Either way, unless you think the blockade itself is "Israel treating Gazans as sub-human", then my point still stands.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  > I didn't particularly like Israeli policy towards Palestinians for the last 15 years, but they were certainly not treated as "sub-human". Garbage. Gaza had its only airport bombed to oblivion 20 years ago and was told any attempt to repair it would result in the same. Its port has been blockaded by the Israeli navy for 15 years. Its only land exits have been heavily locked down. Israel will routinely turn electricity off to the country for days to punish for something, be it a rocket attack, or teens throwing stones. They’ve even turned off water for days too. That’s treating people as subhuman, imprison them and do things like that to them for decades.
  - edanm 1y ago
    The Gazan government is a declared enemy of Israel, wanting its destruction. It has used hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to build its militant group to fight Israel. Given the circumstances, Gaza's neighbors blockade it to keep it from building an even bigger fighting force. > Israel will routinely turn electricity off to the country for days to punish for something, be it a rocket attack, You mean, when occasionally Hamas will try to kill random Israeli civilians using rocket fire? Which is basically a declaration of war and causes Israel to fight back? > or teens throwing stones. I don't think that's actually true. > That’s treating people as subhuman, Israel is treating Hamas-controlled Gaza as a hostile enemy that is intent on destroying it. Given that Hamas, even under the blockade and with all the restrictions in place, still managed to invade Israel and kill a thousand citizens, while kidnapping and holding hostage 250 civilians, and still, a year and a half later, is holding these people hostage and torturing them daily... given that, I think it's hard to say blockading them was a bad idea. If you think the blockade is the reason for their actions, then you're quite simply wrong - they were founded many years before and always had the same goal of destroying Israel, including working hard against the peace process that was forming between Israel and the eventual Palestinian Authority.
glitchc 1y ago
> Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy. The Israeli govt and people would be very supportive of (2). After all, there are more Arabs living in Israel than in Palestine. The Palestineans, on the other hand, overwhelmingly reject this option.
hedora 1y ago
Ongoing war has been a crucial component of the current government's re-election campaigns for decades, so any option that ends the war is a non-starter. I fear their plan is to expand military operations into additional countries until they can get back into a pseudo-stalemate scenario. That'd explain the bombings in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen and Iran.
Sporktacular 1y ago
Perhaps it shouldn't be up to Israel to decide the future of non-citizens then.
wordofx 1y ago
[flagged]
- goldfishgold 1y ago
  How does this post misrepresent Israel’s options and its apparent decision?
  - wordofx 1y ago
    Palestine has had many opportunities for statehood. Current President of Israel is not completely opposed to statehood, citing security concerns which are clearly valid considering Palestine has repeatedly broken cease fire agreements and Hamas entire goal is to eradicate Israel. They are not being treated as sub-human. Remember Israel warns Palestine of air strikes. There have been many reports of Hamas refusing to allow people to leave sites that are targeted for the sole purpose of of martyrdom. The only people being exterminated is the terrorist Organization Hamas. All 4 bullet points are either completely false or misleading.
    - goldfishgold 1y ago
      Clearly there is disagreement in Israel to some limited degree about the reality and appeal of a two state solution, but it’s hard to see that as a realistic or desired outcome when Netanyahu keeps saying things like “everyone knows that I am the one who for decades blocked the establishment of a Palestinian state that would endanger our existence.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-the-establishment-of-a-palestinian-state-for-decades/amp/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-... Certainly it’s the stated position and goal of the current government, which is what the initial post said.
      - wordofx 1y ago
        > that would endanger our existence > citing security concerns If your neighbour keeps throwing stones at you and you agree to not throw stones, they continue to throw stones. You would probably not support any of their wishes.
jekwoooooe 1y ago
And why are they Israel’s problem to solve? What about Jordan who expelled EVERY Palestinian in 1970? What about Qatar? What about Egypt? Lebanon? Any Arab country??? Why is it Israel’s problem? There was a legal agreement in 1948. It could have been so simple.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- carefulfungi 1y ago
  Palestinian militants have destabilized every host country they’ve inhabited. I say this with sympathy for the displaced. Who wouldn’t consider taking up arms if forced from home, stripped of citizenship, corralled into camps, condemned to generations of refugee status. But it is also obvious, historically, why Arab countries aren’t welcoming masses of Palestinians into their countries even in these dire moments.
- int_19h 1y ago
  Because Palestinians were already there when Israelis came and decided to create their state on those lands?
Sporktacular 1y ago
Funny how exiling Gazans to the West Bank is out of the question. It's almost as if they have designs on the entirety of it.

msgodel 1y ago

You'd think given Israel's history they'd do everything they could to not make 4) acceptable.

tradethedelta 1y ago
I think it's the contrary. "Never again" means by any means necessary we will prevent another genocide of our people, even if it means committing genocide unto others. That much has become clear.
ben_w 1y ago
It's very common for people to treat their own side as naturally right, and excuse anything their side does, simply *because* it is their own side. For a commonplace example, look at a soccer match, fans screaming at the referee whenever a decision doesn't go their team's way.
easyThrowaway 1y ago
I don't think there's much overlapping between those who experienced the holocaust and whoever is in charge in Israel right now. Speaking for experience from some relatives, the immigration laws for people of jewish faith and ancestry were nigh insurmountable if you came from african, arab or middle east countries and pretty much just nominal even in recent times for those who had even a remote connection but came from the US and the UK. I have the feeling they are jewish the same way Henry IV was a Catholic when he said "Paris is well worth a Mass".
ndiddy 1y ago
Many of the Zionists viewed the Holocaust as teaching that the Jewish people need a state of their own, no matter what it takes or how many people they have to kill. They viewed the European Jews who had died in the Holocaust as weak, passive cowards who had "allowed" the Holocaust to happen, and went like sheep to their slaughter (ignoring the Warsaw Uprising, and all of the underground Jewish resistance movements). I think Israel's current actions reflect this viewpoint.
meansob 1y ago
[dead]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
int_19h 1y ago
I suggest reading this 1923 essay by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, one of the early figures in the history of Israel and the Zionist movement, before Israel became a state. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot > There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. ... > The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. ... Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators. This is equally true of the Arabs. Our Peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine , in return for cultural and economic advantages. ... > We may tell them whatever we like about the innocence of our aims, watering them down and sweetening them with honeyed words to make them palatable, but they know what we want, as well as we know what they do not want. Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel." ... Colonisation can have only one aim, and Palestine Arabs cannot accept this aim. > We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. Now, Jabotinsky was arguably naive in that he thought that after the inevitable forcing of the Arabs to accept Jewish colonization of their homeland, once they have "given up on all hopes", they could be negotiated with on the terms of settlement: > In the second place, this does not mean that there cannot be any agreement with the Palestine Arabs. What is impossible is a voluntary agreement. As long as the Arabs feel that there is the least hope of getting rid of us, they will refuse to give up this hope in return for either kind words or for bread and butter, because they are not a rabble, but a living people. And when a living people yields in matters of such a vital character it is only when there is no longer any hope of getting rid of us, because they can make no breach in the iron wall. Not till then will they drop their extremist leaders, whose watchword is "Never!" And the leadership will pass to the moderate groups, who will approach us with a proposal that we should both agree to mutual concessions. Then we may expect them to discuss honestly practical questions, such as a guarantee against Arab displacement, or equal rights for Arab citizen, or Arab national integrity. The problem, of course, is that once you have that amount of upper hand over someone, you don't actually have to negotiate. You can just keep taking everything you want, by force. And that is exactly where Israel found itself in the long term.

wordofx 1y ago

[flagged]

rgblambda 1y ago

>Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation As the Palestinians are the majority, the Jewish Israelis would become a minority in terms of citizens and votes. This is very much akin to Apartheid South Africa, where a minority ethnic group rules over the rest of the population.

yoavm 1y ago
The White minority in South Africa were around 15% of the population, while Jews and Palestinians in Israel & Palestine seem to be much more around a 50%-50% split.
- rgblambda 1y ago
  Yes, and I should have clarified that the Palestinian majority is a lot slimmer than was the case in South Africa. Although there remains the case of 700,000 Palestinian refugees who (in the hypothetical scenario of a unified state) would tilt the balance further if allowed to return to their/their parents homes or given property as compensation for repossessed homes.

xorcist 1y ago

Or exile is probably the key word. There are more historical examples of exoduses than genocides. The problem with understanding this situation is that it probably has more to do with Israel's internal politics than what the situation looks like on the ground in Gaza and elsewhere. Just a quick read from the wikipedia page should give an idea just how corrupt the situation really is. There's also the fact that Palestinians aren't a homogenous group in any sense of the word. That makes it hard for them to unite under any political flag. It also doesn't help that the borders are all closed, from both sides, and no neighboring country are willing to accept them. From the outside the situation certainly looks very bleak.

edanm 1y ago

[flagged]

amanaplanacanal 1y ago
Gaza was governed by Hamas under an Israeli blockade. You don't think that had any effect on Gaza lives?
- edanm 1y ago
  (An Israeli and Egyptian blockade) Yes, I do think it had an effect, but less of one than their governing body did, hence my saying so. Either way, unless you think the blockade itself is "Israel treating Gazans as sub-human", then my point still stands.
FireBeyond 1y ago
> I didn't particularly like Israeli policy towards Palestinians for the last 15 years, but they were certainly not treated as "sub-human". Garbage. Gaza had its only airport bombed to oblivion 20 years ago and was told any attempt to repair it would result in the same. Its port has been blockaded by the Israeli navy for 15 years. Its only land exits have been heavily locked down. Israel will routinely turn electricity off to the country for days to punish for something, be it a rocket attack, or teens throwing stones. They’ve even turned off water for days too. That’s treating people as subhuman, imprison them and do things like that to them for decades.
- edanm 1y ago
  The Gazan government is a declared enemy of Israel, wanting its destruction. It has used hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to build its militant group to fight Israel. Given the circumstances, Gaza's neighbors blockade it to keep it from building an even bigger fighting force. > Israel will routinely turn electricity off to the country for days to punish for something, be it a rocket attack, You mean, when occasionally Hamas will try to kill random Israeli civilians using rocket fire? Which is basically a declaration of war and causes Israel to fight back? > or teens throwing stones. I don't think that's actually true. > That’s treating people as subhuman, Israel is treating Hamas-controlled Gaza as a hostile enemy that is intent on destroying it. Given that Hamas, even under the blockade and with all the restrictions in place, still managed to invade Israel and kill a thousand citizens, while kidnapping and holding hostage 250 civilians, and still, a year and a half later, is holding these people hostage and torturing them daily... given that, I think it's hard to say blockading them was a bad idea. If you think the blockade is the reason for their actions, then you're quite simply wrong - they were founded many years before and always had the same goal of destroying Israel, including working hard against the peace process that was forming between Israel and the eventual Palestinian Authority.

glitchc 1y ago

> Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy. The Israeli govt and people would be very supportive of (2). After all, there are more Arabs living in Israel than in Palestine. The Palestineans, on the other hand, overwhelmingly reject this option.

hedora 1y ago

Ongoing war has been a crucial component of the current government's re-election campaigns for decades, so any option that ends the war is a non-starter. I fear their plan is to expand military operations into additional countries until they can get back into a pseudo-stalemate scenario. That'd explain the bombings in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen and Iran.

Sporktacular 1y ago

Perhaps it shouldn't be up to Israel to decide the future of non-citizens then.

wordofx 1y ago

[flagged]

goldfishgold 1y ago
How does this post misrepresent Israel’s options and its apparent decision?
- wordofx 1y ago
  Palestine has had many opportunities for statehood. Current President of Israel is not completely opposed to statehood, citing security concerns which are clearly valid considering Palestine has repeatedly broken cease fire agreements and Hamas entire goal is to eradicate Israel. They are not being treated as sub-human. Remember Israel warns Palestine of air strikes. There have been many reports of Hamas refusing to allow people to leave sites that are targeted for the sole purpose of of martyrdom. The only people being exterminated is the terrorist Organization Hamas. All 4 bullet points are either completely false or misleading.
  - goldfishgold 1y ago
    Clearly there is disagreement in Israel to some limited degree about the reality and appeal of a two state solution, but it’s hard to see that as a realistic or desired outcome when Netanyahu keeps saying things like “everyone knows that I am the one who for decades blocked the establishment of a Palestinian state that would endanger our existence.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-the-establishment-of-a-palestinian-state-for-decades/amp/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-... Certainly it’s the stated position and goal of the current government, which is what the initial post said.
    - wordofx 1y ago
      > that would endanger our existence > citing security concerns If your neighbour keeps throwing stones at you and you agree to not throw stones, they continue to throw stones. You would probably not support any of their wishes.

jekwoooooe 1y ago

And why are they Israel’s problem to solve? What about Jordan who expelled EVERY Palestinian in 1970? What about Qatar? What about Egypt? Lebanon? Any Arab country??? Why is it Israel’s problem? There was a legal agreement in 1948. It could have been so simple.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
carefulfungi 1y ago
Palestinian militants have destabilized every host country they’ve inhabited. I say this with sympathy for the displaced. Who wouldn’t consider taking up arms if forced from home, stripped of citizenship, corralled into camps, condemned to generations of refugee status. But it is also obvious, historically, why Arab countries aren’t welcoming masses of Palestinians into their countries even in these dire moments.
int_19h 1y ago
Because Palestinians were already there when Israelis came and decided to create their state on those lands?

Sporktacular 1y ago

Funny how exiling Gazans to the West Bank is out of the question. It's almost as if they have designs on the entirety of it.