7 ms·

Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to ne

Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to negotiate? Because they expect to "win" if violence continues?

AndyMcConachie 1y ago
[flagged]
- throwaway9917 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Attrecomet 1y ago
    If that is true, Israel would now actually, literally be persuing the exact same politics Nazi Germany did until they escalated their attempted genocide by making it intolerable to genocide by industrial scale murder. Not a good look for Israel, at all.
    - samrus 1y ago
      Israel cares less about looks and more about american support, ehich this administration has cut them a blank cheque for
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 1y ago
      Please don't take HN threads into hard-core ideological and/or nationalistic flamewar. I realize this topic tends strongly in that direction, but that's not a reason to go there, it's a reason not to go there. "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Other commenters are doing it too, but it's a matter of degree, and the rhetoric in your post here is a degree worse. You can make your substantive points without resorting to "cult", "stamped out", "criminal ideology" and so on. Fortunately it doesn't look like your account has a habit of doing this, so it should be easy to fix.
  - perlgeek 1y ago
    What is the evidence for that? If Israel wanted them to leave, wouldn't they seek cooperation with a nation that is willing to have them, and organize mass transports there? At least I haven't heard of any such thing.
    - luckylion 1y ago
      > wouldn't they seek cooperation with a nation that is willing to have them There is no such nation. Iirc Israeli politicians have more than once responded to critique with "you take them, then". But there aren't any takers.
      - Filligree 1y ago
        Just like the Jews in Germany back before WW2, in fact.
- polotics 1y ago
  You do realise that the people writing for Haaretz are also nationals of that country right? Maybe learn to be precise, helps in all situations.
  - SiempreViernes 1y ago
    When asked, in an representative online, poll, 47% percent of Israeli agreed that the IDF should kill all the inhabitants of cities it conquered[1]. So sure, workers at Haarez probably don't, but when the extermination feeling is widespread enough that 47% feel they can openly agree to a question proscribing the killing women and children, then insisting on the insistence on precision comes across mostly as an attempt at distraction. [1] https://theconversation.com/in-israel-calls-for-genocide-have-migrated-from-the-margins-to-the-mainstream-250010 https://theconversation.com/in-israel-calls-for-genocide-hav...
  - andrepd 1y ago
    Israel here obviously standing for "the current government of Israel" (with presumed majority support), not "every single Israeli person". Fortunately many Israelis are against the ongoing genocide, but powerless to stop it.
    - polotics 1y ago
      I disagree: when anything is obviously meaning what someone obviously thinks it means, then others will apply their own obvious understanding of it to justify very non-obvious behaviours.
    - tfrutuoso 1y ago
      There's a palestinian guy living in the US making the rounds on tiktok, talking to random israeli people on something like omegle. The amount of hate he gets is nothing short of depressing. Children cursing at him, IDF soldiers saying they want to kill every single person in Gaza, calling them sub-humans... sounds like the fourth reich is here already. All this to say you're right, but the government is indocrinating more and more people for these views.
- mikevm 1y ago
  [flagged]
- yoavm 1y ago
  If Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians, wouldn't it be easier to start with the millions of Palestinians living in Israel, unarmed, instead of going into Gaza?
  - pphysch 1y ago
    They are doing that. Most people in Gaza were displaced from other legal Palestinian territories. Gaza is was the (big) internment camp.
xdennis 1y ago
[flagged]
- andrepd 1y ago
  > It's not pretty, but That's a wild phrase to use in the context of killing indiscriminate civilians after luring them to the food they're desperate for.
  - demarq 1y ago
    There is something so deeply disturbing about how casually inhumane Israelis can be. They then drop “Hamas” like it’s a full sentence that magically cleanses whatever depravity they just spewed. And it’s all so casual and self righteous.
- aaa_aaa 1y ago
  its not pretty? Selling for profit? You missed the "ah war is hell. Just give up resisting so everything will be fine" part of the propaganda book.
- n2o_sparking 1y ago
  [dead]
- galactus 1y ago
  [flagged]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
andrepd 1y ago
Netanyahu has privately expressed preference for terrorist Hamas over political Fatah, and Israel has propped up those terrorist groups in the past (this is well documented not a conspiracy theory). Why? Because Netanyahu and a good chunk of the Israeli population want the Palestinians to cease to exist and its territory to be part of Israel. An opponent that wants to achieve its goals through political action and appeals to the international community meant that there was a risk of Israel being dragged into a two-state commitment. A terrorist group attacking civilians gives those hardliners a perpetual excuse to go to war. In short: the answer is yes, that appears to be precisely the point: to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication.
- jopsen 1y ago
  > to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation This seems like a feasible goal. > and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication. That strategy haven't worked for what 50 years, what makes anyone think it'll work anytime ever? The Palestinians don't exactly have anywhere to go.
  - earnestinger 1y ago
    If there is a lot of malnutrition, population numbers will change without migration.
    - jopsen 1y ago
      That would take a long time, and the world won't look away for that long -- I hope not
tveita 1y ago
You can't kill 2.1 million people by bombing them. That's why Israel has systematically taken out every hospital in Gaza: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdd25d9vp2qo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdd25d9vp2qo Has blocked and sabotaged aid at every turn, including bombing UN food trucks: https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/01/1158746 https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/01/1158746 And when allied countries got too uneasy about them just blocking all aid trucks at the border, they set up their own aid organization to trickle out nominal amounts of food while they take pot shots at people desperate enough to show up: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74ne108e4vo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74ne108e4vo They didn't just make this up as they go, presumably the plans have been sitting around for a long time waiting for a suitable moment.
- yoavm 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
    Though probably true, it is irrelevant. Hamas doesn't have the power, and Israel does. This war is almost entirely one sided.
    - yoavm 1y ago
      My point was that the comment I was commenting on was false, and that many people who express that sentiment wouldn't be expressing it if the powers were flipped. I'm personally very glad that the powers aren't flipped because I think that if Hamas had F-16s there would many more deaths.
      - earnestinger 1y ago
        > and that many people who express that sentiment wouldn't be expressing it if the powers were flipped That is definitely not true.
      - nathan_compton 1y ago
perlgeek 1y ago
From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The current government certainly doesn't want that, and I have no idea what part of the Palestinians would want that. 3) Continue to treat them as sub-human, and deal with the consequences of the hatred that fosters. That seems to have been the "strategy" before October last year. 4) Try to exterminate or exile them, or at least decimating them to such an extend that the problem becomes smaller. Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy.
- msgodel 1y ago
  You'd think given Israel's history they'd do everything they could to not make 4) acceptable.
  - tradethedelta 1y ago
    I think it's the contrary. "Never again" means by any means necessary we will prevent another genocide of our people, even if it means committing genocide unto others. That much has become clear.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    It's very common for people to treat their own side as naturally right, and excuse anything their side does, simply *because* it is their own side. For a commonplace example, look at a soccer match, fans screaming at the referee whenever a decision doesn't go their team's way.
  - easyThrowaway 1y ago
    I don't think there's much overlapping between those who experienced the holocaust and whoever is in charge in Israel right now. Speaking for experience from some relatives, the immigration laws for people of jewish faith and ancestry were nigh insurmountable if you came from african, arab or middle east countries and pretty much just nominal even in recent times for those who had even a remote connection but came from the US and the UK. I have the feeling they are jewish the same way Henry IV was a Catholic when he said "Paris is well worth a Mass".
tradethedelta 1y ago
The perpetual fight is mutually beneficial to all. The extremist right would not have been able to claim large swaths of land had they not had the air cover to raze Gaza. Now there is serious talk of going back into Gaza. And talk by Trump to turn it into a seaside resort has the settler movement giddy.
- Sporktacular 1y ago
  "all"
burnt-resistor 1y ago
[flagged]

AndyMcConachie 1y ago

[flagged]

throwaway9917 1y ago
[flagged]
- Attrecomet 1y ago
  If that is true, Israel would now actually, literally be persuing the exact same politics Nazi Germany did until they escalated their attempted genocide by making it intolerable to genocide by industrial scale murder. Not a good look for Israel, at all.
  - samrus 1y ago
    Israel cares less about looks and more about american support, ehich this administration has cut them a blank cheque for
- lupusreal 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 1y ago
    Please don't take HN threads into hard-core ideological and/or nationalistic flamewar. I realize this topic tends strongly in that direction, but that's not a reason to go there, it's a reason not to go there. "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Other commenters are doing it too, but it's a matter of degree, and the rhetoric in your post here is a degree worse. You can make your substantive points without resorting to "cult", "stamped out", "criminal ideology" and so on. Fortunately it doesn't look like your account has a habit of doing this, so it should be easy to fix.
- perlgeek 1y ago
  What is the evidence for that? If Israel wanted them to leave, wouldn't they seek cooperation with a nation that is willing to have them, and organize mass transports there? At least I haven't heard of any such thing.
  - luckylion 1y ago
    > wouldn't they seek cooperation with a nation that is willing to have them There is no such nation. Iirc Israeli politicians have more than once responded to critique with "you take them, then". But there aren't any takers.
    - Filligree 1y ago
      Just like the Jews in Germany back before WW2, in fact.
polotics 1y ago
You do realise that the people writing for Haaretz are also nationals of that country right? Maybe learn to be precise, helps in all situations.
- SiempreViernes 1y ago
  When asked, in an representative online, poll, 47% percent of Israeli agreed that the IDF should kill all the inhabitants of cities it conquered[1]. So sure, workers at Haarez probably don't, but when the extermination feeling is widespread enough that 47% feel they can openly agree to a question proscribing the killing women and children, then insisting on the insistence on precision comes across mostly as an attempt at distraction. [1] https://theconversation.com/in-israel-calls-for-genocide-have-migrated-from-the-margins-to-the-mainstream-250010 https://theconversation.com/in-israel-calls-for-genocide-hav...
- andrepd 1y ago
  Israel here obviously standing for "the current government of Israel" (with presumed majority support), not "every single Israeli person". Fortunately many Israelis are against the ongoing genocide, but powerless to stop it.
  - polotics 1y ago
    I disagree: when anything is obviously meaning what someone obviously thinks it means, then others will apply their own obvious understanding of it to justify very non-obvious behaviours.
  - tfrutuoso 1y ago
    There's a palestinian guy living in the US making the rounds on tiktok, talking to random israeli people on something like omegle. The amount of hate he gets is nothing short of depressing. Children cursing at him, IDF soldiers saying they want to kill every single person in Gaza, calling them sub-humans... sounds like the fourth reich is here already. All this to say you're right, but the government is indocrinating more and more people for these views.
mikevm 1y ago
[flagged]
yoavm 1y ago
If Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians, wouldn't it be easier to start with the millions of Palestinians living in Israel, unarmed, instead of going into Gaza?
- pphysch 1y ago
  They are doing that. Most people in Gaza were displaced from other legal Palestinian territories. Gaza is was the (big) internment camp.

xdennis 1y ago

[flagged]

andrepd 1y ago
> It's not pretty, but That's a wild phrase to use in the context of killing indiscriminate civilians after luring them to the food they're desperate for.
- demarq 1y ago
  There is something so deeply disturbing about how casually inhumane Israelis can be. They then drop “Hamas” like it’s a full sentence that magically cleanses whatever depravity they just spewed. And it’s all so casual and self righteous.
aaa_aaa 1y ago
its not pretty? Selling for profit? You missed the "ah war is hell. Just give up resisting so everything will be fine" part of the propaganda book.
n2o_sparking 1y ago
[dead]
galactus 1y ago
[flagged]

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

andrepd 1y ago

Netanyahu has privately expressed preference for terrorist Hamas over political Fatah, and Israel has propped up those terrorist groups in the past (this is well documented not a conspiracy theory). Why? Because Netanyahu and a good chunk of the Israeli population want the Palestinians to cease to exist and its territory to be part of Israel. An opponent that wants to achieve its goals through political action and appeals to the international community meant that there was a risk of Israel being dragged into a two-state commitment. A terrorist group attacking civilians gives those hardliners a perpetual excuse to go to war. In short: the answer is yes, that appears to be precisely the point: to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication.

jopsen 1y ago
> to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation This seems like a feasible goal. > and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication. That strategy haven't worked for what 50 years, what makes anyone think it'll work anytime ever? The Palestinians don't exactly have anywhere to go.
- earnestinger 1y ago
  If there is a lot of malnutrition, population numbers will change without migration.
  - jopsen 1y ago
    That would take a long time, and the world won't look away for that long -- I hope not

tveita 1y ago

You can't kill 2.1 million people by bombing them. That's why Israel has systematically taken out every hospital in Gaza: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdd25d9vp2qo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdd25d9vp2qo Has blocked and sabotaged aid at every turn, including bombing UN food trucks: https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/01/1158746 https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/01/1158746 And when allied countries got too uneasy about them just blocking all aid trucks at the border, they set up their own aid organization to trickle out nominal amounts of food while they take pot shots at people desperate enough to show up: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74ne108e4vo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74ne108e4vo They didn't just make this up as they go, presumably the plans have been sitting around for a long time waiting for a suitable moment.

yoavm 1y ago
[flagged]
- amanaplanacanal 1y ago
  Though probably true, it is irrelevant. Hamas doesn't have the power, and Israel does. This war is almost entirely one sided.
  - yoavm 1y ago
    My point was that the comment I was commenting on was false, and that many people who express that sentiment wouldn't be expressing it if the powers were flipped. I'm personally very glad that the powers aren't flipped because I think that if Hamas had F-16s there would many more deaths.
    - earnestinger 1y ago
      > and that many people who express that sentiment wouldn't be expressing it if the powers were flipped That is definitely not true.
    - nathan_compton 1y ago

perlgeek 1y ago

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The current government certainly doesn't want that, and I have no idea what part of the Palestinians would want that. 3) Continue to treat them as sub-human, and deal with the consequences of the hatred that fosters. That seems to have been the "strategy" before October last year. 4) Try to exterminate or exile them, or at least decimating them to such an extend that the problem becomes smaller. Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy.

msgodel 1y ago
You'd think given Israel's history they'd do everything they could to not make 4) acceptable.
- tradethedelta 1y ago
  I think it's the contrary. "Never again" means by any means necessary we will prevent another genocide of our people, even if it means committing genocide unto others. That much has become clear.
- ben_w 1y ago
  It's very common for people to treat their own side as naturally right, and excuse anything their side does, simply *because* it is their own side. For a commonplace example, look at a soccer match, fans screaming at the referee whenever a decision doesn't go their team's way.
- easyThrowaway 1y ago
  I don't think there's much overlapping between those who experienced the holocaust and whoever is in charge in Israel right now. Speaking for experience from some relatives, the immigration laws for people of jewish faith and ancestry were nigh insurmountable if you came from african, arab or middle east countries and pretty much just nominal even in recent times for those who had even a remote connection but came from the US and the UK. I have the feeling they are jewish the same way Henry IV was a Catholic when he said "Paris is well worth a Mass".

tradethedelta 1y ago

The perpetual fight is mutually beneficial to all. The extremist right would not have been able to claim large swaths of land had they not had the air cover to raze Gaza. Now there is serious talk of going back into Gaza. And talk by Trump to turn it into a seaside resort has the settler movement giddy.

Sporktacular 1y ago
"all"

burnt-resistor 1y ago

[flagged]