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I suspect that is because people's moral responsibility has a large component of "who is on the hook for this". Nothing stirs moral sensibility better than bein

I suspect that is because people's moral responsibility has a large component of "who is on the hook for this". Nothing stirs moral sensibility better than being solely responsible and easily identified. Those whose moral sense is dulled when they follow orders arguably don't actually have a genuine sense of moral responsibility beyond evading blame.

PaulHoule 1y ago
There is more than one way to come to the same moral conclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_... Recently somebody asked "What do you think about the ethics of lying on your resume?" and my answer was "You'll get fired if you get caught" which I think is a good answer which should be convincing to most people even if it doesn't represent the highest level of ethics.
- gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
  How shall we steelman the idea that monarchism (as argued by de Maistre) is the best foil for syndicalo-technocratism ? >Despite his preference for monarchy, Maistre acknowledged that republics could be the superior form of government, depending on the situation and the people. Maistre also defended the government of the United States because its people were heirs to the democratic spirit of Great Britain, which he felt France lacked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Claude_de_Saint-Martin#Works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Claude_de_Saint-Martin#W... >Saint-Martin taught that humanity possesses a faculty that is superior to the rational sense of morality, and that it is by this faculty that we receive knowledge of God. (I oughta have declared it was a brotherhood[0] of functional Sz that S-M was part of-- that would exclude full blown ScZs) [0] if I had to guess, it's related to mitochondrial DNA, like autism
  - PaulHoule 1y ago
    That guy’s ideal form of government seems like it would lead to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade My take is that solar economy monarchies had poor state capacity although it’s hard to make categorical statements because they cover such a wide range of times and times. There was not a formalized conception of individual rights for the masses so the state did not enforce that. Various sorts of kayfabe were in effect, such as the Japanese emperor, allegedly descended from the gods, being under the thumb of the Tokugawa shogunate. The Tokogawas made shows of ruthlessness which, in the long term, turned into a bluff. Behind the mask of absolutism that kind of state may actually require the consent of the daimyo class, who mainly want impunity over their own domains. Servants of the emperor in China would need to work with illegal folk religionists in the hinterland if they wanted to get anything done. We think of Rome as a pinnacle of state capacity but it evolved that capacity as a republic.
    - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
      Placeholder for later, more considered reply: >Servants of the emperor in China would need to work with illegal folk religionists in the hinterland if they wanted to get anything done https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot_doctor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot_doctor Shallow take is that Children's Crusade were led by peasantry, haven't examined the role of aristocrats (like S-M or M : property insurance can only lead to functionality :), were they only there to rubberstamp the populism State capacity is very quantitative I like it
      - PaulHoule 1y ago
        Nobles don't feel a lot of need to seek power through claims of spiritual experience. If you're in the hinterland, however, you might find being possessed by a fox as a way to move up in the world. My son had a friend whose parents came from China, his dad had a big job, his mom felt like might have been a mistake to immigrate because she had a medical certificate (barefoot doctor?) of some sort which wasn't accepted in the US. Now my son's friend was mentally ill, I believed, and his mother believed he was mentally ill because he was possessed by a demon. She went to an evangelical church where I wouldn't expect her to be encouraged that belief. Some people have said, "it's a good thing she isn't practicing medicine in the US if she believes stuff like that" It's kinda no surprise that a person from a rural village in China would believe that or, really, that anyone from a rural village in the developing world would believe that -- it's what they do. My son's friend gave him an expose about witch doctors in Africa written by a missionary that, based on what I know now, was probably motivated by his experience with his mom. In particular, I was later to learn that the fox cult in China is pretty similar in how it works, I mean, you might have hundreds of fox shrines in your area and if you have some problem you can't work out the fox (through a medium) will tell you how it will be. If you fail to comply, the fox doesn't need a lot of help haunting you (you'll bump into fox shrines every day) but you can rest assured the fox can call in a favor from someone if it needs help haunting you and if the fox is just starting in its career it has connections it met at the fox academy that will help it because it will then be indebted to them. As it is an alternative route to status, fox mediumship is a career path for lower-status men or women of a wider range of SES who might find it's a job they can do out of the house.
- kazinator 1y ago
  Mostly, you will be caught only because of some issues in your work which casts into doubt what you claimed on the resume. People get caught before getting the job. "25 years of systems programming experience; cannot diagram a linked list insertion with just boxes and arrows (no code).

PaulHoule 1y ago

There is more than one way to come to the same moral conclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_... Recently somebody asked "What do you think about the ethics of lying on your resume?" and my answer was "You'll get fired if you get caught" which I think is a good answer which should be convincing to most people even if it doesn't represent the highest level of ethics.

gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
How shall we steelman the idea that monarchism (as argued by de Maistre) is the best foil for syndicalo-technocratism ? >Despite his preference for monarchy, Maistre acknowledged that republics could be the superior form of government, depending on the situation and the people. Maistre also defended the government of the United States because its people were heirs to the democratic spirit of Great Britain, which he felt France lacked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Claude_de_Saint-Martin#Works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Claude_de_Saint-Martin#W... >Saint-Martin taught that humanity possesses a faculty that is superior to the rational sense of morality, and that it is by this faculty that we receive knowledge of God. (I oughta have declared it was a brotherhood[0] of functional Sz that S-M was part of-- that would exclude full blown ScZs) [0] if I had to guess, it's related to mitochondrial DNA, like autism
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  That guy’s ideal form of government seems like it would lead to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade My take is that solar economy monarchies had poor state capacity although it’s hard to make categorical statements because they cover such a wide range of times and times. There was not a formalized conception of individual rights for the masses so the state did not enforce that. Various sorts of kayfabe were in effect, such as the Japanese emperor, allegedly descended from the gods, being under the thumb of the Tokugawa shogunate. The Tokogawas made shows of ruthlessness which, in the long term, turned into a bluff. Behind the mask of absolutism that kind of state may actually require the consent of the daimyo class, who mainly want impunity over their own domains. Servants of the emperor in China would need to work with illegal folk religionists in the hinterland if they wanted to get anything done. We think of Rome as a pinnacle of state capacity but it evolved that capacity as a republic.
  - gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
    Placeholder for later, more considered reply: >Servants of the emperor in China would need to work with illegal folk religionists in the hinterland if they wanted to get anything done https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot_doctor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot_doctor Shallow take is that Children's Crusade were led by peasantry, haven't examined the role of aristocrats (like S-M or M : property insurance can only lead to functionality :), were they only there to rubberstamp the populism State capacity is very quantitative I like it
    - PaulHoule 1y ago
      Nobles don't feel a lot of need to seek power through claims of spiritual experience. If you're in the hinterland, however, you might find being possessed by a fox as a way to move up in the world. My son had a friend whose parents came from China, his dad had a big job, his mom felt like might have been a mistake to immigrate because she had a medical certificate (barefoot doctor?) of some sort which wasn't accepted in the US. Now my son's friend was mentally ill, I believed, and his mother believed he was mentally ill because he was possessed by a demon. She went to an evangelical church where I wouldn't expect her to be encouraged that belief. Some people have said, "it's a good thing she isn't practicing medicine in the US if she believes stuff like that" It's kinda no surprise that a person from a rural village in China would believe that or, really, that anyone from a rural village in the developing world would believe that -- it's what they do. My son's friend gave him an expose about witch doctors in Africa written by a missionary that, based on what I know now, was probably motivated by his experience with his mom. In particular, I was later to learn that the fox cult in China is pretty similar in how it works, I mean, you might have hundreds of fox shrines in your area and if you have some problem you can't work out the fox (through a medium) will tell you how it will be. If you fail to comply, the fox doesn't need a lot of help haunting you (you'll bump into fox shrines every day) but you can rest assured the fox can call in a favor from someone if it needs help haunting you and if the fox is just starting in its career it has connections it met at the fox academy that will help it because it will then be indebted to them. As it is an alternative route to status, fox mediumship is a career path for lower-status men or women of a wider range of SES who might find it's a job they can do out of the house.
kazinator 1y ago
Mostly, you will be caught only because of some issues in your work which casts into doubt what you claimed on the resume. People get caught before getting the job. "25 years of systems programming experience; cannot diagram a linked list insertion with just boxes and arrows (no code).