4 ms·

Why are we buying further into the US closed garden? Why pay and then ask for permission from "daddy" before we can use our own toys?

by exe34 1y ago

neepi 1y ago
That will be because BAE Systems Tempest is crawling along with little investment.
- stoobs 1y ago
  Yeah, with Japan joining, I'm at least a little hopeful that it will prompt a little more positive action from the government to loosen the purse-strings a bit to get things moving again...
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
postingawayonhn 1y ago
Because Europe doesn't produce anything comparable at present.
- bilekas 1y ago
  The Typhoon and the Rafale are 4.5 gen, because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe. But they are very much comparable, and I believe refulable from RAF. That said there is a 6th gen in development, FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. interesting tests in dogfighting were done at least : https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-vs-eurofighter-training-dogfight-2024-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-... Now will dogfighting matter? Who knows, but the EU certainly has different priotities.
  - preisschild 1y ago
    > because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. > FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Also the UK is a member of the competing GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme) project > Now will dogfighting matter No. Of course not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme
    - bilekas 1y ago
      > What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. Europe doesn't prioritize stealth because Europe uses it's airforce primarily as response and defense. Being able to take down targets long before ever noticed is not in Europe's playbook right now, when it becomes required, that's where NATO comes in. Individual countries buying is their own thing. > The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Yes, these things take time.. Point is the Eurofighter's fill a role, to enrich all the ariforces. It's not a competition between the USAF and European, we collaborate, unless we're in another war, these days who knows. > No. Of course not. I think if Ukraine has showed anything, it's that definite assertions like that are risky.
_djo_ 1y ago
The UK government is already committed to operating F-35Bs for decades to come, and these 12 aircraft replace 12 F-35Bs already planned for in the next procurement package. The main reason for getting 12 F-35As is for the nuclear strike role and for cheaper operational conversion training for F-35B aircrew. They're not going to do much else, so the inability to refuel from RAF tankers isn't a huge dealbreaker.
pjbster 1y ago
Probably a condition imposed by the US in order for the UK to avoid tariffs or to grease the wheels of other trade agreements.
Y_Y 1y ago
> Eagle's answer to this was that other NATO countries would be able to refuel the RAF's F-35A fighters, which of course there will be absolutely no problem with during a period of crisis or conflict.
bilekas 1y ago
If I have to give an educated guess I would say it's due to the logistics of maintenance for the Eurofighters. > The Eurofighter’s European collaboration model distributes manufacturing and support across partner nations, and this model lowers acquisition costs for the initial adopters. However, the Typhoon's maintenance requirements, especially for its EJ200 engines, can be complex for operators outside Europe, which has hindered export sales. Given the UK has left the EU, I wonder if that would effect their maintenance costs and availablity, although I would assume something could be worked out given they're in NATO!
- rgblambda 1y ago
  The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Most gulf states either have or are in the process of acquiring Eurofighter Typhoons.
  - bilekas 1y ago
    > The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Well it's not really when you consider services and materials need to leave the EU which incurs taxes. And as for the Gulf states, who knows but they usually have enough money to not care much.
    - rgblambda 1y ago
      Would that not be covered under the UK-EU Free Trade Agreement or the UK-EU Security & Defence Partnership? And if it were the case, then Eurofighter isn't independent of the UK either, as it's one of the main stakeholders and manufacturers. I think your previous comment explains it better. The maintenance and logistical complexities are being experienced by countries that weren't initial adopters. The UK remains an initial adopter and manufacturer for Eurofighter.

Why are we buying further into the US closed garden? Why pay and then ask for permission from "daddy" before we can use our own toys?

by exe34 1y ago

Why are we buying further into the US closed garden? Why pay and then ask for permission from "daddy" before we can use our own toys?

neepi 1y ago

That will be because BAE Systems Tempest is crawling along with little investment.

stoobs 1y ago
Yeah, with Japan joining, I'm at least a little hopeful that it will prompt a little more positive action from the government to loosen the purse-strings a bit to get things moving again...

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

postingawayonhn 1y ago

Because Europe doesn't produce anything comparable at present.

bilekas 1y ago
The Typhoon and the Rafale are 4.5 gen, because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe. But they are very much comparable, and I believe refulable from RAF. That said there is a 6th gen in development, FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. interesting tests in dogfighting were done at least : https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-vs-eurofighter-training-dogfight-2024-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-... Now will dogfighting matter? Who knows, but the EU certainly has different priotities.
- preisschild 1y ago
  > because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. > FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Also the UK is a member of the competing GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme) project > Now will dogfighting matter No. Of course not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme
  - bilekas 1y ago
    > What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. Europe doesn't prioritize stealth because Europe uses it's airforce primarily as response and defense. Being able to take down targets long before ever noticed is not in Europe's playbook right now, when it becomes required, that's where NATO comes in. Individual countries buying is their own thing. > The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Yes, these things take time.. Point is the Eurofighter's fill a role, to enrich all the ariforces. It's not a competition between the USAF and European, we collaborate, unless we're in another war, these days who knows. > No. Of course not. I think if Ukraine has showed anything, it's that definite assertions like that are risky.

_djo_ 1y ago

The UK government is already committed to operating F-35Bs for decades to come, and these 12 aircraft replace 12 F-35Bs already planned for in the next procurement package. The main reason for getting 12 F-35As is for the nuclear strike role and for cheaper operational conversion training for F-35B aircrew. They're not going to do much else, so the inability to refuel from RAF tankers isn't a huge dealbreaker.

pjbster 1y ago

Probably a condition imposed by the US in order for the UK to avoid tariffs or to grease the wheels of other trade agreements.

Y_Y 1y ago

> Eagle's answer to this was that other NATO countries would be able to refuel the RAF's F-35A fighters, which of course there will be absolutely no problem with during a period of crisis or conflict.

bilekas 1y ago

If I have to give an educated guess I would say it's due to the logistics of maintenance for the Eurofighters. > The Eurofighter’s European collaboration model distributes manufacturing and support across partner nations, and this model lowers acquisition costs for the initial adopters. However, the Typhoon's maintenance requirements, especially for its EJ200 engines, can be complex for operators outside Europe, which has hindered export sales. Given the UK has left the EU, I wonder if that would effect their maintenance costs and availablity, although I would assume something could be worked out given they're in NATO!

rgblambda 1y ago
The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Most gulf states either have or are in the process of acquiring Eurofighter Typhoons.
- bilekas 1y ago
  > The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Well it's not really when you consider services and materials need to leave the EU which incurs taxes. And as for the Gulf states, who knows but they usually have enough money to not care much.
  - rgblambda 1y ago
    Would that not be covered under the UK-EU Free Trade Agreement or the UK-EU Security & Defence Partnership? And if it were the case, then Eurofighter isn't independent of the UK either, as it's one of the main stakeholders and manufacturers. I think your previous comment explains it better. The maintenance and logistical complexities are being experienced by countries that weren't initial adopters. The UK remains an initial adopter and manufacturer for Eurofighter.