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I'm sure this will freak out many indie developers, but relax this doesn't affect you. Just yesterday I stumbled upon a developer video from Germany who was tr

by mrtksn 1y ago

I'm sure this will freak out many indie developers, but relax this doesn't affect you. Just yesterday I stumbled upon a developer video from Germany who was trying to build some AI RAG SaaS for small businesses and was completely overwhelmed with the EU Privacy and data protection regulations and was stuttering when was talking about going to jail for using OpenAI API the wrong way. Just Wow. These things are not for you, nobody is going to jail for their app or paying life ruining fines in Europe as long as they don't actually cause real harm. All those rules and regulations are intended for large companies who abuse their power or harm large parts of the society by ignoring stuff when not making them profit.

jonathanstrange 1y ago
Sorry but this line of "don't worry buddy, nobody cares about your small company" reasoning is dangerous. No reputable company wants to operate in a legal grey zone. Or do these directives and the corresponding laws explicitly only apply to large corporations? Edit: I'm not complaining about the regulations in this comment, I'm saying that it's bad advice to ignore them just because you're a small business unless there is an exception for them. As it happens, exceptions for small business are planned.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Any examples of indie devs burned by that danger? Don't do shady stuff and you will be fine and if you do shady stuff and push for edge cases and interpretation ambiguities to run your business then study the laws in details and lawyer up. The basics are simple enough to run a legit business. There are some obvious and basic data protection requirements but I wouldn't call a gray zone unless pushing for it. Also, there's no EU police checking apps for violations etc. You don't just get sued the moment your app hits the App Store.
- ahofmann 1y ago
  There is no legal grey zone. Just read the law. In Germany it's the BFSG (Barrierefreiheitsstärkungsgesetz) and it is much more pleasant than this monster of a word let's you assume. It mainly boils down to: write ARIA tags and adhere to WCAG version 2.1 level AA.
  - jonathanstrange 1y ago
    I have no idea why you're replying to my comment, I wasn't insinuating that these regulations are hard to follow, I was replying to someone who suggested that small companies don't need to care about them because these laws are intended for large corporations only and won't be enforced on small business. IANAL but that's advice to operate in a legal grey zone and generally not recommended unless the respective laws explicitly make exceptions for small businesses - which they happen to make but OP failed to mention this.
- chrisldgk 1y ago
  I don’t know the exact wording, but from the GDPR and accessibility trainings I had to sit through at the enterprises I used to work at, I believe there is a certain size of company under which the regulations don’t apply. That was somewhere in the millions in revenue each year, so if you’re actually an indie-hacker, this should not apply to you. I’ll check if I can find a source for that claim though. There are some parts of GDPR that are non-negotiable however, even for indie hackers. If you collect personally identifiable info, you NEED a privacy policy, a process for users to get their data deleted if they request it, for example.
amarcheschi 1y ago
The directive contains lighter requirements for microenterprises, in some cases going as far as not even asking them to make a paper trail and just trust their word for it. Of course it's going to hit micro companies less than big companies, who's going to sue a micro enterprise because the atm isn't designed with accessibility in mind
- LocalH 1y ago
  US-centric view here. There's a whole cottage industry of people who look for micro-accessibility-infractions and milk it for everything they can get. Nobody's too small to be sued, and nobody's too small to file a suit.
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    Any examples of people who got sued?
  - Mashimo 1y ago
    But what would the benefit be to suing someone small in the EU? It's not like you get money from it.
  - rickydroll 1y ago
    Maybe that's my next get-rich scheme? I could be filing ADA lawsuits against all websites because they don't have a functional speech recognition interface using the speech recognition environment I am paying for.
imhoguy 1y ago
Yes and No. EU acts are only guidelines and minimal requirements to be implemented by member country governments. There is a problem of gold-plating, overregulation of laws in some countries. In worst cases once you are targeted by audit of law enforcement which may burn all you focus and time, you only dream to close your small business and leave the country.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  True, it all depends on the implementation in each country. Any examples of this happening to small developers?
  - tossandthrow 1y ago
    No, this is a directive - they are not being interpreted.
pchangr 1y ago
That’s not true. There’s a whole business industry in Germany for legal buro’s who specialize in basically extorting business into paying for their services to make their websites or compliant .. or be sued and face a 54k euro fine. I personally, decided to stop doing business in Germany altogether because of this. It’s a nightmare for small business.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Like patent trolls but for Germans?

by mrtksn 1y ago

jonathanstrange 1y ago

Sorry but this line of "don't worry buddy, nobody cares about your small company" reasoning is dangerous. No reputable company wants to operate in a legal grey zone. Or do these directives and the corresponding laws explicitly only apply to large corporations? Edit: I'm not complaining about the regulations in this comment, I'm saying that it's bad advice to ignore them just because you're a small business unless there is an exception for them. As it happens, exceptions for small business are planned.

mrtksn 1y ago
Any examples of indie devs burned by that danger? Don't do shady stuff and you will be fine and if you do shady stuff and push for edge cases and interpretation ambiguities to run your business then study the laws in details and lawyer up. The basics are simple enough to run a legit business. There are some obvious and basic data protection requirements but I wouldn't call a gray zone unless pushing for it. Also, there's no EU police checking apps for violations etc. You don't just get sued the moment your app hits the App Store.
ahofmann 1y ago
There is no legal grey zone. Just read the law. In Germany it's the BFSG (Barrierefreiheitsstärkungsgesetz) and it is much more pleasant than this monster of a word let's you assume. It mainly boils down to: write ARIA tags and adhere to WCAG version 2.1 level AA.
- jonathanstrange 1y ago
  I have no idea why you're replying to my comment, I wasn't insinuating that these regulations are hard to follow, I was replying to someone who suggested that small companies don't need to care about them because these laws are intended for large corporations only and won't be enforced on small business. IANAL but that's advice to operate in a legal grey zone and generally not recommended unless the respective laws explicitly make exceptions for small businesses - which they happen to make but OP failed to mention this.
chrisldgk 1y ago
I don’t know the exact wording, but from the GDPR and accessibility trainings I had to sit through at the enterprises I used to work at, I believe there is a certain size of company under which the regulations don’t apply. That was somewhere in the millions in revenue each year, so if you’re actually an indie-hacker, this should not apply to you. I’ll check if I can find a source for that claim though. There are some parts of GDPR that are non-negotiable however, even for indie hackers. If you collect personally identifiable info, you NEED a privacy policy, a process for users to get their data deleted if they request it, for example.

amarcheschi 1y ago

The directive contains lighter requirements for microenterprises, in some cases going as far as not even asking them to make a paper trail and just trust their word for it. Of course it's going to hit micro companies less than big companies, who's going to sue a micro enterprise because the atm isn't designed with accessibility in mind

LocalH 1y ago
US-centric view here. There's a whole cottage industry of people who look for micro-accessibility-infractions and milk it for everything they can get. Nobody's too small to be sued, and nobody's too small to file a suit.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Any examples of people who got sued?
- Mashimo 1y ago
  But what would the benefit be to suing someone small in the EU? It's not like you get money from it.
- rickydroll 1y ago
  Maybe that's my next get-rich scheme? I could be filing ADA lawsuits against all websites because they don't have a functional speech recognition interface using the speech recognition environment I am paying for.

imhoguy 1y ago

Yes and No. EU acts are only guidelines and minimal requirements to be implemented by member country governments. There is a problem of gold-plating, overregulation of laws in some countries. In worst cases once you are targeted by audit of law enforcement which may burn all you focus and time, you only dream to close your small business and leave the country.

mrtksn 1y ago
True, it all depends on the implementation in each country. Any examples of this happening to small developers?
- tossandthrow 1y ago
  No, this is a directive - they are not being interpreted.

pchangr 1y ago

That’s not true. There’s a whole business industry in Germany for legal buro’s who specialize in basically extorting business into paying for their services to make their websites or compliant .. or be sued and face a 54k euro fine. I personally, decided to stop doing business in Germany altogether because of this. It’s a nightmare for small business.

mrtksn 1y ago
Like patent trolls but for Germans?