6 ms·

Servers outside any legal jurisdiction. Priceless.

bobthepanda 1y ago
Given that most of the major powers have satellite shootdown ability this isn't worth all that much if you're causing enough trouble.
- FredPret 1y ago
  Shooting down a satellite is a major step that creates a mess of space junk, angering everybody. Plus you can just have a couple of politicians from each major power park their money on that satellite.
  - bryanrasmussen 1y ago
    >Shooting down a satellite is a major step that creates a mess of space junk, angering everybody. unless everybody is angry at satellite in which case it is a price everybody is even eager to pay. >Plus you can just have a couple of politicians from each major power park their money on that satellite. I've long had the idea that there are fashions in corruption and a point at which to be corrupt just becomes too gauche and most politicians go back to being honest. This explains the highly variant history of extreme corruption in democracies. At any rate while the idea that the cure for any government interference is to be sufficiently corrupt sounds foolproof in theory I'm not sure it actually works out. If I was a major politician and you had my competitors park their money on your satellite it would become interesting for me to get rid of it. Indeed if you had me and my competitors on the satellite I might start thinking how do I conceal getting my money out of here and then wait for best moment to ram measure through to blow up satellite.
    - FredPret 1y ago
      By that logic, politicians around the world would make it illegal for themselves to trade stock on their insider knowledge. I'm not holding my breath. See: https://unusualwhales.com/politics https://unusualwhales.com/politics. Some of these politicians on both sides are very good and consistent stock pickers indeed.
      - bryanrasmussen 1y ago
        huh?.. I'm sorry but what logic is it you're referring to here? Is it the idea that there are fashions in corruption? If so by that logic we are probably in an era of high corruption. Is it the idea that if I were a corrupt politician and I had equally corrupt enemies I would use my knowledge of their corruption to dirty trick them? Because ... dirty tricking them and getting them to lose all their finance at one time is not quite the same as passing a law making it difficult for everyone to get more finance from hereon out. I'm not following exactly what logic of mine you think you've defeated with observing that there are a lot of corrupt politicians nowadays?
notahacker 1y ago
The 'Principality of Sealand', anywhere else on the high seas or Antarctica have their issues with practicality too, but considerably less likelihood of background radiation flipping bits...
psds2 1y ago
Who would be willing to provide connectivity to servers that are exploiting being outside legal jurisdiction for some kind of value?
- edm0nd 1y ago
  Dozens upon dozens of illicit shady bulletproof hosting providers. 2026, we will get ransomware from space! The RaaS groups have hundreds of millions of dollars so in theory they actually could get something like that setup if they wanted.
  - ronsor 1y ago
    > 2026, we will get ransomware from space! Ahem, cloud ransomware.
- ronsor 1y ago
  Anyone with a ground station aimed at the datacenter satellite.
mandevil 1y ago
International space law (starting with the Outer Space Treaty of 1967) says that nations are responsible for all spacecraft they launch, no matter whether the government or a non-governmental group launches them. So a server farm launched by a Danish company is governed by Danish law just the same as if they were on the ground- and exposed to the same ability to put someone into jail if they don't comply with a legal warrant etc. This is true even if your company moves the actual launching to, say, a platform in international waters- you (either a corporation or an individual) are still regulated by your home country, and that country is responsible for your actions and has full enforcement rights over you. There is no area beyond legal control, space is not a magic "free from the government" area.
- reaperducer 1y ago
  nations are responsible for all spacecraft they launch, no matter whether the government or a non-governmental group launches them. Nations come and go. In my lifetime, the world map has changed dozens of times. Incorporate in a country that doesn't look like it's going to be around very long. More than likely, the people running it will be happy to take your money.
  - christina97 1y ago
    Generally though, countries don’t disappear: they have a predecessor and a successor.
    - reaperducer 1y ago
      A successor may take possession of the land, but that doesn't mean it will also take responsibility for the previous government's liabilities.
      - afiori 1y ago
        That is why international treaties come with implicit or explicit enforcement options
      - 1y ago
paxys 1y ago
Unless the company blasts its HQ and all its employees into space, no, they are very much subject to the jurisdiction of the countries they operate in. The physical location of the data center is irrelevant.
- peterbonney 1y ago
  Exactly. Government entities have a funny habit of making their own decisions about what (and who) is and is not subject to their jurisdiction.
_carbyau_ 1y ago
:-) I appreciate your snark and the ad campaign reference. But if international waters isn't enough (and much cheaper) then I don't think space will either. Man's imagination for legal control knows no bounds. You wait (maybe not, it's a long wait...), if humankind ever does get out to the stars, the legal claims of the major nations on the universe will have preceded them.
runako 1y ago
[Mild spoilers for _Critical Mass_ by Daniel Suarez below] > Servers outside any legal jurisdiction Others have weighed in on the accuracy of this, with a couple pointing out that the people are still on the ground. There's a thread in _Critical Mass_ by Daniel Suarez that winds up dealing with this issue in a complex set of overlapping ways. Pretty good stuff, I don't think the book will be as good as the prior book in the series. (I'm only about halfway through.)
nkrisc 1y ago
Pretty worthless unless the execs live in space too.
- dismalpedigree 1y ago
  Why? Its not like we put execs in jail for allowing their companies to do terrible things under their watch.
  - nkrisc 1y ago
    Not often enough, but it does happen.
pjc50 1y ago
I know there's the fantasy of orbital CSAM storage able to beam obscenity to any point on the ground with zero accountability, but that is not going to survive real world politics.
micromacrofoot 1y ago
Would be cheaper to do in international waters, even if you needed security to protect it.

Given that most of the major powers have satellite shootdown ability this isn't worth all that much if you're causing enough trouble.

FredPret 1y ago
Shooting down a satellite is a major step that creates a mess of space junk, angering everybody. Plus you can just have a couple of politicians from each major power park their money on that satellite.
- bryanrasmussen 1y ago
  >Shooting down a satellite is a major step that creates a mess of space junk, angering everybody. unless everybody is angry at satellite in which case it is a price everybody is even eager to pay. >Plus you can just have a couple of politicians from each major power park their money on that satellite. I've long had the idea that there are fashions in corruption and a point at which to be corrupt just becomes too gauche and most politicians go back to being honest. This explains the highly variant history of extreme corruption in democracies. At any rate while the idea that the cure for any government interference is to be sufficiently corrupt sounds foolproof in theory I'm not sure it actually works out. If I was a major politician and you had my competitors park their money on your satellite it would become interesting for me to get rid of it. Indeed if you had me and my competitors on the satellite I might start thinking how do I conceal getting my money out of here and then wait for best moment to ram measure through to blow up satellite.
  - FredPret 1y ago
    By that logic, politicians around the world would make it illegal for themselves to trade stock on their insider knowledge. I'm not holding my breath. See: https://unusualwhales.com/politics https://unusualwhales.com/politics. Some of these politicians on both sides are very good and consistent stock pickers indeed.
    - bryanrasmussen 1y ago
      huh?.. I'm sorry but what logic is it you're referring to here? Is it the idea that there are fashions in corruption? If so by that logic we are probably in an era of high corruption. Is it the idea that if I were a corrupt politician and I had equally corrupt enemies I would use my knowledge of their corruption to dirty trick them? Because ... dirty tricking them and getting them to lose all their finance at one time is not quite the same as passing a law making it difficult for everyone to get more finance from hereon out. I'm not following exactly what logic of mine you think you've defeated with observing that there are a lot of corrupt politicians nowadays?

notahacker 1y ago

The 'Principality of Sealand', anywhere else on the high seas or Antarctica have their issues with practicality too, but considerably less likelihood of background radiation flipping bits...

psds2 1y ago

Who would be willing to provide connectivity to servers that are exploiting being outside legal jurisdiction for some kind of value?

edm0nd 1y ago
Dozens upon dozens of illicit shady bulletproof hosting providers. 2026, we will get ransomware from space! The RaaS groups have hundreds of millions of dollars so in theory they actually could get something like that setup if they wanted.
- ronsor 1y ago
  > 2026, we will get ransomware from space! Ahem, cloud ransomware.
ronsor 1y ago
Anyone with a ground station aimed at the datacenter satellite.

mandevil 1y ago

International space law (starting with the Outer Space Treaty of 1967) says that nations are responsible for all spacecraft they launch, no matter whether the government or a non-governmental group launches them. So a server farm launched by a Danish company is governed by Danish law just the same as if they were on the ground- and exposed to the same ability to put someone into jail if they don't comply with a legal warrant etc. This is true even if your company moves the actual launching to, say, a platform in international waters- you (either a corporation or an individual) are still regulated by your home country, and that country is responsible for your actions and has full enforcement rights over you. There is no area beyond legal control, space is not a magic "free from the government" area.

reaperducer 1y ago
nations are responsible for all spacecraft they launch, no matter whether the government or a non-governmental group launches them. Nations come and go. In my lifetime, the world map has changed dozens of times. Incorporate in a country that doesn't look like it's going to be around very long. More than likely, the people running it will be happy to take your money.
- christina97 1y ago
  Generally though, countries don’t disappear: they have a predecessor and a successor.
  - reaperducer 1y ago
    A successor may take possession of the land, but that doesn't mean it will also take responsibility for the previous government's liabilities.
    - afiori 1y ago
      That is why international treaties come with implicit or explicit enforcement options
    - 1y ago

paxys 1y ago

Unless the company blasts its HQ and all its employees into space, no, they are very much subject to the jurisdiction of the countries they operate in. The physical location of the data center is irrelevant.

peterbonney 1y ago
Exactly. Government entities have a funny habit of making their own decisions about what (and who) is and is not subject to their jurisdiction.

_carbyau_ 1y ago

:-) I appreciate your snark and the ad campaign reference. But if international waters isn't enough (and much cheaper) then I don't think space will either. Man's imagination for legal control knows no bounds. You wait (maybe not, it's a long wait...), if humankind ever does get out to the stars, the legal claims of the major nations on the universe will have preceded them.

runako 1y ago

[Mild spoilers for _Critical Mass_ by Daniel Suarez below] > Servers outside any legal jurisdiction Others have weighed in on the accuracy of this, with a couple pointing out that the people are still on the ground. There's a thread in _Critical Mass_ by Daniel Suarez that winds up dealing with this issue in a complex set of overlapping ways. Pretty good stuff, I don't think the book will be as good as the prior book in the series. (I'm only about halfway through.)

nkrisc 1y ago

Pretty worthless unless the execs live in space too.

dismalpedigree 1y ago
Why? Its not like we put execs in jail for allowing their companies to do terrible things under their watch.
- nkrisc 1y ago
  Not often enough, but it does happen.

pjc50 1y ago

I know there's the fantasy of orbital CSAM storage able to beam obscenity to any point on the ground with zero accountability, but that is not going to survive real world politics.

micromacrofoot 1y ago

Would be cheaper to do in international waters, even if you needed security to protect it.