5 ms·

Good luck debugging

TeMPOraL 1y ago
You don't debug AI-generated code - you throw the problematic chunk away and have AI write it again, and if that doesn't help, you repeat the process, possibly with larger chunks. Okay, not in every case, but in many, and that's where we're headed. The reason is economics - i.e. the same reason approximately no one in the West repairs their clothes or appliances; they just throw the damaged thing away and buy a new one. Human labor is expensive, automated production is cheap - even more so in digital space.
- alganet 1y ago
  You don't throw away dams, bridges, factories, submarines, planes. There is a lot of man made stuff you just cannot easily replace. Instead, we maintain it. Remember, _this is not about you_. The post is about qemu. I would argue that qemu is analogous to one of these pieces of infrastructure. There is only a handful of powerful virtual machines. These are _not_ easily replaceable commodities.
  - TeMPOraL 1y ago
    > You don't throw away dams, bridges, factories, submarines, planes. You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options. Maintenance involves replacing parts that are broken or are approaching the end of their service period. (Infrastructure in some places is also special because it's so badly funded it's not maintained at all, but that's out of scope of this analogy). > Remember, _this is not about you_. The post is about qemu. The post is about qemu. The comment, as well as most of the comment thread, is talking about coding in general. Sure, many things still get repaired - usually when they're expensive enough to dwarf marginal cost of repair labor. But if you dig into it, repair often involves treating parts as disposables, and tools as consumables.
    - alganet 1y ago
      > You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options. You don't build these parts in assembly lines. They're often not cheap commodities. Satellites, for example, are full of parts made by hand because no assembly line can handle the requirements. These, require specialized troubleshooting (debugging). If you're talking exclusively about the cheap stuff (trivial programs), you're in the wrong thread (arguibly, the wrong website). We gave you a little space, but that's a courtesy that other environments might not extend.
      - fc417fc802 1y ago
        Satellites are the most extreme of edge cases. The equivalent might be a binary that gets burned into a ROM chip installed in an impossible to access location. QEMU is not that. Granted I don't think something as specialized as QEMU is well suited to a component replacement model. But large parts of the codebases of the vast majority of software out there is.
        TeMPOraL 1y ago
        > Satellites are the most extreme of edge cases. Were the most extreme of edge cases. That was entirely because of space economics being stuck in a death spiral. SpaceX near single-handedly[0] turned this around, by focusing on slashing launch costs and increasing launch cadence. Both of that lead to more missions, meaning less risk, so satellites can be smaller and made of cheap COTS parts because now you can do 10 for price of 1, which enables economies of scale, blah blah. A feedback loop. Or rather, the feedback loop. It's the same one that enabled mass production and commodities in every aspect of our lives. Satellites aren't an exception to my argument - space industry is just late to the party, but it's going through a commoditization process right now, in front of our very eyes. 10+ years from now, you won't find a hand-made part in any satellite outside obscure prototype edge cases. -- [0] - Of course it was possible thanks to NASA COTS programs which funded it, and accumulation of knowledge, etc. SpaceX was the "operating end" of this transformation.
        1y ago
- bonzini 1y ago
  > You don't debug AI-generated code - you throw the problematic chunk away and have AI write it again, and if that doesn't help, you repeat the process, possibly with larger chunks. That makes absolutely no sense.
- latexr 1y ago
  > the same reason approximately no one in the West repairs their clothes or appliances; they just throw the damaged thing away and buy a new one. And how is that turning out for us? We have a climate crisis which is already causing immense destruction and deaths and will only get worse. I’m not sure you could’ve picked a worse argument, you’re refuting your own point.
  - fc417fc802 1y ago
    What do the environmental impacts of physical manufacturing have to do with digital goods? The status quo you're objecting to arose specifically because it is cheaper. His argument is sound.

Good luck debugging

You don't debug AI-generated code - you throw the problematic chunk away and have AI write it again, and if that doesn't help, you repeat the process, possibly with larger chunks. Okay, not in every case, but in many, and that's where we're headed. The reason is economics - i.e. the same reason approximately no one in the West repairs their clothes or appliances; they just throw the damaged thing away and buy a new one. Human labor is expensive, automated production is cheap - even more so in digital space.

alganet 1y ago
You don't throw away dams, bridges, factories, submarines, planes. There is a lot of man made stuff you just cannot easily replace. Instead, we maintain it. Remember, _this is not about you_. The post is about qemu. I would argue that qemu is analogous to one of these pieces of infrastructure. There is only a handful of powerful virtual machines. These are _not_ easily replaceable commodities.
- TeMPOraL 1y ago
  > You don't throw away dams, bridges, factories, submarines, planes. You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options. Maintenance involves replacing parts that are broken or are approaching the end of their service period. (Infrastructure in some places is also special because it's so badly funded it's not maintained at all, but that's out of scope of this analogy). > Remember, _this is not about you_. The post is about qemu. The post is about qemu. The comment, as well as most of the comment thread, is talking about coding in general. Sure, many things still get repaired - usually when they're expensive enough to dwarf marginal cost of repair labor. But if you dig into it, repair often involves treating parts as disposables, and tools as consumables.
  - alganet 1y ago
    > You don't fix their parts either, unless you absolutely have no other options. You don't build these parts in assembly lines. They're often not cheap commodities. Satellites, for example, are full of parts made by hand because no assembly line can handle the requirements. These, require specialized troubleshooting (debugging). If you're talking exclusively about the cheap stuff (trivial programs), you're in the wrong thread (arguibly, the wrong website). We gave you a little space, but that's a courtesy that other environments might not extend.
    - fc417fc802 1y ago
      Satellites are the most extreme of edge cases. The equivalent might be a binary that gets burned into a ROM chip installed in an impossible to access location. QEMU is not that. Granted I don't think something as specialized as QEMU is well suited to a component replacement model. But large parts of the codebases of the vast majority of software out there is.
      - TeMPOraL 1y ago
        > Satellites are the most extreme of edge cases. Were the most extreme of edge cases. That was entirely because of space economics being stuck in a death spiral. SpaceX near single-handedly[0] turned this around, by focusing on slashing launch costs and increasing launch cadence. Both of that lead to more missions, meaning less risk, so satellites can be smaller and made of cheap COTS parts because now you can do 10 for price of 1, which enables economies of scale, blah blah. A feedback loop. Or rather, the feedback loop. It's the same one that enabled mass production and commodities in every aspect of our lives. Satellites aren't an exception to my argument - space industry is just late to the party, but it's going through a commoditization process right now, in front of our very eyes. 10+ years from now, you won't find a hand-made part in any satellite outside obscure prototype edge cases. -- [0] - Of course it was possible thanks to NASA COTS programs which funded it, and accumulation of knowledge, etc. SpaceX was the "operating end" of this transformation.
        1y ago
bonzini 1y ago
> You don't debug AI-generated code - you throw the problematic chunk away and have AI write it again, and if that doesn't help, you repeat the process, possibly with larger chunks. That makes absolutely no sense.
latexr 1y ago
> the same reason approximately no one in the West repairs their clothes or appliances; they just throw the damaged thing away and buy a new one. And how is that turning out for us? We have a climate crisis which is already causing immense destruction and deaths and will only get worse. I’m not sure you could’ve picked a worse argument, you’re refuting your own point.
- fc417fc802 1y ago
  What do the environmental impacts of physical manufacturing have to do with digital goods? The status quo you're objecting to arose specifically because it is cheaper. His argument is sound.