5 ms·

I'm one of those about to graduate students from a technical university in Lisbon, and for me, there is no doubt anymore, I'll start to work outside of Portugal

I'm one of those about to graduate students from a technical university in Lisbon, and for me, there is no doubt anymore, I'll start to work outside of Portugal. When you look at it from one side, South European countries have everything: they have the food, the weather, good universities, kind and welcoming people (not to say that other countries don't), talent. They have the potential to be the best countries to live at. What's missing then? For me what is missing in Portugal, and what makes me want to go away from it is mostly bad working conditions: the notion that the IT guy is the new slave. I have had older colleagues saying to me that they were working on a Sunday at 11pm and have seen people from consulting companies coming to my university and proudly saying that when we would be working at their company "we could say goodbye to that cinema evening with friends". These consulting companies, some of which are always eager to hire (which leaves us wondering what is happening to their workforce), exploit the fact that these graduates are used to semesters of constant crunch time and exploit them by putting them in the same state in their companies. People are expected to work past their time, and most of them do... and for what? 1200 euros before taxes and you are considered lucky. If you don't accept that paycheck someone else will. I did in my last college year an Erasmus in Sweden that came now to an end, and I'm not coming back to Portugal. I've found things to be very different here. There is a huge respect for life outside work, and the jobs actually pay the graduates with the salaries that reward them for their effort and knowledge. The problem is maybe precisely this one: graduates feeling that there is no reward waiting for them by the end of college.

tluyben2 14y ago
Change comes from the people of the country, not the people who run away. You should fight for change, not take the way of least resistance. Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. And yes, of course you don't work for big consultancy companies :) That I have notices a lot; people in Portugal, especially students, seem to be overly occupied with career and such and want to go to 'the big companies'. They are not fun; Logica, Cap gemini or even Outsystems (who are 'small' but SHOULD be PT pride!); these are stable companies but they have a lot of experience how to manipulate and exploit people. The cultural thing (apparently?) that all students want to have for-life jobs (never occurred to me during or after university) and careers is a problem, as this won't happen in the north either. You'll get a contract 'for life' here because it doesn't really matter for the employer to give you that or temporary; you are protected mostly, so it's easier to just give you an eternal contract and use the court to force you out if need be.
- miguelpais 14y ago
  To be quite frank I wonder what is better for the country: staying there, working your ass off and getting just enough to survive, or being outside, opening your horizons, maybe being exposed to new ways of thinking, technologies or ideas, and one day come back and strive to offer to the country what you learned outside. These people that are leaving, they still love they country, and I'm sure most of them still think about returning to it sooner or later.
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    But I don't think that's true. Portugal (and the other southern countries) have a lot of talent; why let that talent be bought up by outside countries (like mine)? The world is very ripe for near shoring and actually good programmers are incredibly hard to find. For anyone. People are getting tired with Asian 'factories' with people who, usually, derive no pleasure from their work. Simply; if you open a company NOW in PT and you train 10 Outsystems guys, you and those guys will be able to live a GREAT life. You can sell them in NL/DE/FR for E100/hour and they don't expect you do 'work nights'. It's just the business sense which seems to be lacking. You need to USE the fact that it's a crisis, PT is going under; it means you don't cost E200, you 'only' cost E100 or E75 an hour. How much do you think the US army is paying per hour to Outsystems for the engineers sitting in Lisbon?
    - Postmodum 14y ago
      One of the big problems in Portugal, aside from all the economic issue, is the "employee syndrome" ... at least it's what i call it. In Portugal, it's hard to find people with a entrepreneur'ish spirit. Everyone want's to be employee and expect the salary at the end of the month without ( and the salary must be really interesting too ). Oh, and another thing ... people just can't understand that you need to be offer something for the company success other than just sitting on you desk doing what you're told to. It's all about being a worthily asset for the company, other than just being an simple asset. Yes... i own my own company. Yes, i did employ several people with and without superior degrees. What i found out is that people without superior degree in Portugal are more productive ( of course, there are exceptions ) and in general, have better technical skills than those who just finished university ( this is another problem in Portugal, universities are all about theory ... although, slowly, we can see some changing... ). Juniors just can't expect to earn the same salary as someone that has more experience. It's all about return of investment. .. and in the IT world, you need to have to be a good ROI. Of course, salaries in Portugal can't compare to bigger countries as France, Germany, US ... or emerging IT capitals that are living a wave of venture capitals. We are a small country, that is growing in the IT world. And if you think about it, we are really newborns in this world... Yes, there are great professionals in Portugal ( and prospects too that are in the university ) ... but there's something about the mentality that we must change. It's all about what you do for a company what they can do for you. As for the emigration, i think abroad experiences enrich people and sometimes change their way of seing things. Usually, in the principal external markets targeted by emigrants, there's a higher money flow, and the experience of working in a bigger/wealthier company, makes us grow. But the same problem persists ... you need to be a added value for the company... and in most cases, people only understand that when they are faced with the cold reality that they really need to work had to make a difference. :) Of course, since they earn more money, they will take that with a different spirit. ( and yes, there are really bad companies in Portugal that are full with "professionals" and "directors" that, often, know less than a junior or someone with 5 years of experience in the market. It's the difference between working for money without much enjoyment and working for something you really enjoy while earning money doing it)
lifeisstillgood 14y ago
Whatever others say, I suggest you take your talent overseas for a while. Portugal will exist and in 10 or 20 years you and the rest of your generation will return - and demand change. Look at India's vast middle class / consultancy fodder. They are returning home and not simply demanding, but expecting things to be different.
theorique 14y ago
1200 euros for which time period? That's critically important!
- tluyben2 14y ago
  1200 gross per month is not weird in PT. It's on the very low side though.
  - theorique 14y ago
    Thanks - I wasn't sure if it was per week or month. Per year sounds weird unless it's a 3rd world country.
marcocampos 14y ago
I've grown so dispassionate about the tech industry in Portugal that I've been thinking about quitting and doing something else (I'm 28 and I always wanted to be a software developer). I can't change countries (my girlfriend's profession doesn't make it easy to change) so I don't have that many options, so it's either put up it with or quit. My advice is go and don't come back. The industry around here won't value your skills, you will be considered a tech janitor and after a few years you'll lose your passion and become jaded or just conform to the status quo.
aristidesfl 14y ago
Maybe the fact European Southern Countries have food, the weather, good universities, and welcoming people makes people not to have to elaborate as much in order to enjoy themselves and live another day. That's one of the factors which contribute for them to be more laid back and invest less in work and organization, leading to competitive disadvantage over the years in other fields.
- ufo 14y ago
  He is not complaining about a technical disadvantage. The problem they are complaining about is about the current management culture and sunshine and good food doesn't make it any easier to deal with it.

tluyben2 14y ago

Change comes from the people of the country, not the people who run away. You should fight for change, not take the way of least resistance. Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. And yes, of course you don't work for big consultancy companies :) That I have notices a lot; people in Portugal, especially students, seem to be overly occupied with career and such and want to go to 'the big companies'. They are not fun; Logica, Cap gemini or even Outsystems (who are 'small' but SHOULD be PT pride!); these are stable companies but they have a lot of experience how to manipulate and exploit people. The cultural thing (apparently?) that all students want to have for-life jobs (never occurred to me during or after university) and careers is a problem, as this won't happen in the north either. You'll get a contract 'for life' here because it doesn't really matter for the employer to give you that or temporary; you are protected mostly, so it's easier to just give you an eternal contract and use the court to force you out if need be.

miguelpais 14y ago
To be quite frank I wonder what is better for the country: staying there, working your ass off and getting just enough to survive, or being outside, opening your horizons, maybe being exposed to new ways of thinking, technologies or ideas, and one day come back and strive to offer to the country what you learned outside. These people that are leaving, they still love they country, and I'm sure most of them still think about returning to it sooner or later.
- tluyben2 14y ago
  But I don't think that's true. Portugal (and the other southern countries) have a lot of talent; why let that talent be bought up by outside countries (like mine)? The world is very ripe for near shoring and actually good programmers are incredibly hard to find. For anyone. People are getting tired with Asian 'factories' with people who, usually, derive no pleasure from their work. Simply; if you open a company NOW in PT and you train 10 Outsystems guys, you and those guys will be able to live a GREAT life. You can sell them in NL/DE/FR for E100/hour and they don't expect you do 'work nights'. It's just the business sense which seems to be lacking. You need to USE the fact that it's a crisis, PT is going under; it means you don't cost E200, you 'only' cost E100 or E75 an hour. How much do you think the US army is paying per hour to Outsystems for the engineers sitting in Lisbon?
  - Postmodum 14y ago
    One of the big problems in Portugal, aside from all the economic issue, is the "employee syndrome" ... at least it's what i call it. In Portugal, it's hard to find people with a entrepreneur'ish spirit. Everyone want's to be employee and expect the salary at the end of the month without ( and the salary must be really interesting too ). Oh, and another thing ... people just can't understand that you need to be offer something for the company success other than just sitting on you desk doing what you're told to. It's all about being a worthily asset for the company, other than just being an simple asset. Yes... i own my own company. Yes, i did employ several people with and without superior degrees. What i found out is that people without superior degree in Portugal are more productive ( of course, there are exceptions ) and in general, have better technical skills than those who just finished university ( this is another problem in Portugal, universities are all about theory ... although, slowly, we can see some changing... ). Juniors just can't expect to earn the same salary as someone that has more experience. It's all about return of investment. .. and in the IT world, you need to have to be a good ROI. Of course, salaries in Portugal can't compare to bigger countries as France, Germany, US ... or emerging IT capitals that are living a wave of venture capitals. We are a small country, that is growing in the IT world. And if you think about it, we are really newborns in this world... Yes, there are great professionals in Portugal ( and prospects too that are in the university ) ... but there's something about the mentality that we must change. It's all about what you do for a company what they can do for you. As for the emigration, i think abroad experiences enrich people and sometimes change their way of seing things. Usually, in the principal external markets targeted by emigrants, there's a higher money flow, and the experience of working in a bigger/wealthier company, makes us grow. But the same problem persists ... you need to be a added value for the company... and in most cases, people only understand that when they are faced with the cold reality that they really need to work had to make a difference. :) Of course, since they earn more money, they will take that with a different spirit. ( and yes, there are really bad companies in Portugal that are full with "professionals" and "directors" that, often, know less than a junior or someone with 5 years of experience in the market. It's the difference between working for money without much enjoyment and working for something you really enjoy while earning money doing it)

lifeisstillgood 14y ago

Whatever others say, I suggest you take your talent overseas for a while. Portugal will exist and in 10 or 20 years you and the rest of your generation will return - and demand change. Look at India's vast middle class / consultancy fodder. They are returning home and not simply demanding, but expecting things to be different.

theorique 14y ago

1200 euros for which time period? That's critically important!

tluyben2 14y ago
1200 gross per month is not weird in PT. It's on the very low side though.
- theorique 14y ago
  Thanks - I wasn't sure if it was per week or month. Per year sounds weird unless it's a 3rd world country.

marcocampos 14y ago

I've grown so dispassionate about the tech industry in Portugal that I've been thinking about quitting and doing something else (I'm 28 and I always wanted to be a software developer). I can't change countries (my girlfriend's profession doesn't make it easy to change) so I don't have that many options, so it's either put up it with or quit. My advice is go and don't come back. The industry around here won't value your skills, you will be considered a tech janitor and after a few years you'll lose your passion and become jaded or just conform to the status quo.

aristidesfl 14y ago

Maybe the fact European Southern Countries have food, the weather, good universities, and welcoming people makes people not to have to elaborate as much in order to enjoy themselves and live another day. That's one of the factors which contribute for them to be more laid back and invest less in work and organization, leading to competitive disadvantage over the years in other fields.

ufo 14y ago
He is not complaining about a technical disadvantage. The problem they are complaining about is about the current management culture and sunshine and good food doesn't make it any easier to deal with it.