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Framework Laptop 12 press reviews are live and Framework Laptop 13 in-stock
- ndiddy 1y agoI think it's a shame they went with 2 year old 13th gen Intel processors for these. The newer Lunar Lake Intel chips have much better battery life and thermals, and you can find them in other similarly priced laptops. The main downside is that Lunar Lake chips have soldered on RAM, but given that Framework already sells a desktop with soldered RAM that shouldn't be a dealbreaker for them.
- jabart 1y agoFor their marketing it is. There is a very specific reason the desktop exists. On-premise AI workloads. You can't get the bus width on socketed ram that you do soldered ram at the current moment. 1 product is an exception, 2 would be a break from their replaceable component marketing.
- dpc_01234 1y agoIt used to be that CPU and GPU were separate cards/chips, nowadays they are often integrated. There are good reasons to solder-in RAM. Yes it's a tradeoff, but it's reasonable. I don't expect FW to revert technical decisions that are not under their control. Mostly, I just don't want to be buying whole new laptop because my keyboard had a defect, or I cracked my screen. If the compute module comes with a soldered RAM, it's perfectly fine with me. For most most of my systems I buy it with RAM maxed-out, and when I get a new one, there's typically new generation of DDR, new speeds, etc. and I will not reuse my old RAM. I'm fine with buying and replacing a new CPU + RAM module as a unit, and I would buy such a module. The fact that there are modules with external memory is already enough good faith commitment to repairability.
- bevr1337 1y agoUnless Foundation always uses the current generation CPU, then this complaint is always valid. Or maybe invalid. Thermals and energy consumption are almost always improving between generations. It's hard for me to think of 13th generation as old. Maybe I'm getting old!
- ndiddy 1y agoThe reason why I brought it up was that Lunar Lake was specifically designed to make an x86 offering that has comparable battery life with chips from Qualcomm and Apple. It's not a standard marginal generational improvement, for light office tasks (the type of use case this laptop is intended for) you get around 17 hours of battery life vs the previous generation's 10 hours (see benchmark results here: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2463714/tested-intels-lunar-lake-wants-you-to-forget-snapdragon-ever-existed.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/2463714/tested-intels-lunar-... ).
- moffkalast 1y agoIt's not surprising, Meteor Lake and onwards are all TSMC and unlike Intel they still actually know how to manufacture chips. Arc iGPUs are also a massive improvement over Iris.
- ndiddy 1y agoIt's not just a TSMC vs. Intel thing, Lunar Lake gets 7 more hours of battery life than Meteor Lake when doing the same "light office tasks" benchmark.
- moffkalast 1y agoOk that part is surprising, Meteors already draw very little, like < 25W unless turbo boosting and 6W idling. What kind of wattage does Lunar have?
- moffkalast 1y agoYeah I complained about this on the framework subreddit when I first heard of the FW12, asking for reasons and expectedly got downvoted into oblivion. Apparently expecting them to use something mildly recent is too much to ask for and it's supposed to be a cheapshit student laptop aimed at schools or whatever. Wouldn't be as bad if it weren't Intel's worst CPU gen in recent memory, FW probably got a bargain box deal on them. Meanwhile the HX370 is still warm from the oven and already in the FW13, linux drivers aren't even ready yet with compatibility complaints aplenty. Not to mention the FW Desktop with the AI Max which was the first launch of that chipset worldwide.
- katmannthree 1y agoFrom your careful word choice you know this but I'd like to draw attention to the specifics here. I'm not sure if it's actually soldered on but RAM is on-package like apple's M-series chips, unlike what used to be the case where soldering ram to the board was a choice made by the laptop mfgs. Here's there's no choice to be made other than not using the chips. And unfortunately (although there are some benefits), it's probably not going to be just a few generations but a trend for high end processors going forward.
- joshfee 1y agoIt is actually one of the few cases where I don't actually really care about independent upgradability. In my experience I find that I pretty much always upgrade my CPU and my RAM in tandem. New CPU architectures sometimes force it (e.g. need DDR5 instead of DDR4), and as long as you don't severely undersize your initial RAM choice I find that I run out of CPU headroom before I run out of RAM headroom. So if there's performance gains to be had by co-locating RAM with the CPU in a single package, it makes sense to me to do so
- fragmede 1y ago> and as long as you don't severely undersize your initial RAM choice That's the problem though. when dealing with used machines (because new ones are beyond your budget), you get cheaper hand me downs, and those are going to be of your undersized RAM variety. In the socketed days, you could get a five year old laptop, replace the existing RAM with the biggest sticks you cloud get your hands on, and get a few more years of life out of the machine. A laptop stuck at four gigs of ram these days isn't going to be great for much web browsing, but is also basically stuck at four gigs.
- 9283409232 1y agoSelling a laptop with soldered ram might literally kill the company at this stage. Their entire brand and market is based on repairability.
- bgorman 1y agoI would have bought a Framework laptop but here were the dealbreakers - Ancient Intel processors - AMD option seemed to be accompanied by broken wifi It's not that hard. Just provide a single modern option that just works. I don't want to troubleshoot device drivers in my spare time.
- pbadeer2 1y agoWifi worked out of the box for me on FW13 both the AMD 7840U and the HX 370 mainboards, in Ubuntu 24.04 LTS and 25.04. Ethernet via USB-C dock worked out of the box as well.
- miloignis 1y agoWhat's wrong with the AMD version's wifi? I've got the original AMD F13 (and run NixOS) and I have no issues.
- NewJazz 1y agoIt's also a plain old M.2 WiFi/BT module. So if you really hate it, swap it out.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- ben-schaaf 1y agoI haven't had any issues with Wifi. A family member replaced theirs with an Intel chip to fix an issue; turns out reception was just bad and not the wifi chip. That brings me to my second point: if the wifi chip's what's holding you back there's nothing stopping you from replacing it.
- preisschild 1y agoI use the Framework 16 AMD with the Mediatek MT7922 WiFi 6E wireless chip using the mt7921e driver and it works great
- unclad5968 1y ago> It's not that hard I suspect it's actually quite difficult to build an entirely modular laptop to work with several operating systems while supporting the latest components, and be void of any driver issues.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- dartharva 1y agoIt's going to remain a niche token product for everyone but connoisseurs to ignore with that kind of a specs-to-cost imbalance.
- 9283409232 1y agoI don't see anything wrong with that Framework is going after a specific but lucrative segment of the market
- dartharva 1y agoNo objection from me either. It's just that it defeats their intended purpose of pushing a paradigm shift to high-sustainability devices.
- chintan 1y agoI ran XPS Developer Edition (Ubuntu) for 5+ years without any issues. Using Framework for past year - every day I have to reboot because it freezes with 20+ Firefox tabs (Ubuntu 22.04, AMD). Tried all options (disable vGPU etc) but no luck.
- FirmwareBurner 1y agoOlder laptops, especially all-Intel ones, tend to be way more reliable on Linux from my experience.
- wing-_-nuts 1y agoYep, my last laptop purchase was an xps13. Unfortunately the 8gb of soldered on ram is becoming woefully insufficient with how bloated the modern web has gotten. I have a beefy desktop, but if I replace my laptop I think it will probably be a thinkpad.
- rtkwe 1y agoPeople make fun of Chrome being a RAM hog but I'm having more issues with FF than I ever did with Chrome. For some reason on reddit specifically FF will randomly freeze for a few seconds, my cursor will stop rendering on top of it (like it's going behind the window) and it won't accept inputs. If I keep typing through it it all appears in the window after it unfreezes. Also FF will regularly take multiple gigs for random tabs like Youtube if I leave them open. Tldr it might be more of a firefox problem than a framework problem.
- afandian 1y agoI have a ThinkPad T480s with Ubuntu and Firefox. Works like a dream except every now and again the whole thing locks up (have to power cycle). Happens with AWS Console and LinkedIn. Maybe it's doing me a favour.
- cosmic_cheese 1y agoI would hazard a guess that it’s more of a “devs only test against Chromium” problem than it is a Firefox problem. It’s a problem seen under WebKit-based browsers at times, too. Gecko and WebKit often behave differently and have different performance characteristics than Chromium/Blink does, but that’s often not accounted for at all. The extent of QA on non-Chromium browsers too often stops at “it technically runs”.
- zeta0134 1y agoI suppose the main thing keeping me from being interested in this thing is that every 2-in-1 convertible I've tried in the past was *heavy* and *cumbersome* to use as an actual tablet. I wonder how this holds up, but I'm not sure it's possible to fix the main issue: the keyboard makes it real awkward to hold. It's like a whole product class that looks amazing in marketing shots and is kindof a pain to use in any of the non-laptop modes in practice. Am I just holding it wrong?
- starkparker 1y agoMy favorite 2nd device is an old Dell Inspiron 11 2-in-1. By all accounts it's a terribly specced device, but it still runs modern Fedora + KDE well, the touchscreen works well, and the display quality isn't awful. Many of the knocks against it (small size, cheap plastic case, small battery) work in its favor by keeping it light enough to use as a tablet. The battery, RAM, and SSD are all serviceable. I see them on eBay frequently for as little as $20-40 each in lots or $50-70 standalone. The 10" Lenovo Duet Chromebook tablets are a close second but don't age as well and can't be realistically repaired or upgraded.
- lawn 1y agoIt's annoying how reviewers focus on the performance specs while mostly ignoring the big differentiator of the 2-in-1 feature.
- nfriedly 1y agoNo, I don't think you're doing it wrong. I think the microsoft surfacebook design, where it could be used like a normal laptop with the keyboard attached, or like a tablet with the screen detached was the only design that could really do both well, and it had its own issues. The regular surface devices (and ipads and android tablets) that are tablet-devices first with flimsy detachable keyboards are fine if you have a table to set them on, but difficult to use on your lap, and often have a mediocre typing experience. And, on the flip side, you get devices like this where the keyboard stays attached and folds around behind the screen. It can be good for certain use cases, but it's clearly meant to be a laptop first, and it's "tablet mode" is inevitably going to be more cumbersome than a "real" tablet. I doubt there's any perfect solution, TBH.
- mstngl 1y agoThe more videos with the FW12 moving and used before the Camera I see, the less I can ignore the fat bezels. The design language at all is not made for „business“ which is refreshing and they obviously have a budget approach, but such ancient bezels don‘t do a contribution for anything. The lack of any Windows Hello enabling hardware was the final bit for my sad no-buy decision.
- 9283409232 1y agoI'm glad Framework exists but I don't envy them. Selling laptops aimed at the most nitpicky never-satisfied group of people must make it hard to see through the noise. I wish them the best.
- vaylian 1y agoIs my framework perfect? No. But it's still the best laptop I've ever owned. Just like open source software, it's not about having the most shiny look and feel, but it's about knowing that the creator wants me to have the freedom and empowerment to open it up and adjust it to my needs and desires. Other companies will just say that I've voided the warranty when I try fixing or tweaking it myself.
- dpc_01234 1y agoMaybe these users are picky, but they are under-served, very influential, and very productive w.r.t. improving support for the laptop in the ecosystem. At this point FW became a go-to laptop for Linux hackers, and it gets great support in all avant-garde tech like e.g. NixOS.
- TiredOfLife 1y agoThere is a certain rich racingdriver/programmer/macuser who moved his whole company to framework laptops running linux. So they must be doing something right
- 9283409232 1y agoI don't know who you are talking about but I'm not implying that Framework is doing anything wrong, just that they have chosen a very difficult user base to cater to.
- MostlyStable 1y agoI'm actually curious how much difficulty they have with their actual customers. There are always a ton of negative comments in these threads, but those seem to be from people who just fundamentally value different things than what framework is tyring to do (which is totally fine and valid!), and therefore very specifically aren't the customer base. I can't speak more broadly, but I've been super happy with my Framework16, warts and all (and there are a few). My guess is that the core audience of people who want a repairable, upgradeable laptop tend to be tinkerers and don't mind a little bit of extra effort.
- cosmic_cheese 1y agoI know Framework somewhat have their hands tied by modularity, but for the 13 I think the next thing they need to focus on more than anything is battery life. At this point it’s not just MacBooks that greatly outperform the FW13 on that front, but also several competing x86 laptops. For the price it’s difficult to justify taking such a steep hit, even with repairability factored in.
- 9283409232 1y agoI would like Framework to go the System76 route and adopt a Linux distro that they can very finely tune for the Framework laptop. Macbooks have the benefit of MacOS being completely vertically integrated. I don't see Framework putting this level of effort in, even on the OEM Windows side of things like other OEMs such as Dell do. Their software needs to be better.
- cosmic_cheese 1y agoIt’d be nice, but keeping a team of engineers capable of that sort of low-level work can’t be cheap, so it seems unlikely.
- fragmede 1y agoPennywise, pound foolish, unfortunately, but more than that, companies that do hardware and software well are few and far between, and the ones that do tend to be highly valued. AMD famously does value software much, or pay their software developers relatively well.
- asoneth 1y agoIs it pound foolish, or just a rational business decision? Let's say they ship 100k laptops per year. Let's say they could meaningfully improve battery life with a team of half-dozen excellent software engineers, which would cost on the order of a few million a year. For the sake of argument, let's say ~$3M/yr. That increases the price per laptop by ~$30 on average. That's a premium I'd pay for improved efficiency, but judging by the comments here and elsewhere, the premium they're already charging above the raw component prices seems to be at the upper end of what most people are willing to pay. It's fiendishly difficult to become the next Apple, Tesla, Nintendo, or Valve with thick enough margins on your hardware (or services) to afford excellent software engineering teams, so it makes sense that so few hardware companies attempt it, and many who try eventually give up.
- henryzhou 1y agoBasically it says buying a used laptop worth more than the Laptop 12
- MostlyStable 1y agoPeople have a lot of pretty valid issues with Framework. When you optimize as hard as they do for repairability, upgradeability, and modularity, you are going to make some sacrifices in other arenas that won't be to everyone's liking, and that's totally fine. But the one criticism that I haven't quite understood is price. Yes, Framework is more expensive....the first time. But from then on (and for the 13, this is now 3 or 4 generations I believe), buying a new mainboard with a latest gen chip is going to be the cheapest you can get those specs for. Yeah, a used laptop might still be cheaper, but it won't be the same specs, and if used is what you want, you can probably get a used mainboard from the last gen that someone else is upgrading from for even cheaper. Unless you are someone who thrashes their laptops so hard that you expect to need to replace not just the mainboard, but also the screen, keyboard and chasis, then framework represents by far the cheapest way to keep getting new laptop specs into the future. I'm not even someone who upgrades laptops very often (every 5 years or so, historically), and even on that schedule, and I still thing that long term it will be cheaper. If you are someone who upgrades more often, then it makes an even bigger difference. Again, to be clear, I think there are very valid reasons that a Framework might not be the right laptop for someone. I just thing that thinking about the one-time purchase price of the entire laptop is completely missing the entire point of Framework.
- drooopy 1y agoFor whatever reason the FW 12 is giving me iBook G4 vibes and I love that.
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y agoIs it just the colors? (I also really like that)
- drooopy 1y agoIt's a combination of the compact, 12" plastic shell with the soft edges and rounded corners, near edge-to-edge keyboard and a soft two-tone colour palette. I only wish that it had a more square-ish, 4:3 screen like the iBook.
- binary132 1y agoI’ve been really curious about some of the hybrid handhelds / micro laptops from GPD lately. Framework should consider looking into this market niche as well.
- nfriedly 1y agoI love my GPD Win mini, and I've had a few other GPD products before that, but I'm not sure if a framework-style modular design would work as well there. For starters, they've always gone with soldered RAM for both physical size and performance reasons (RAM speed matters more with integrated graphics, and soldered RAM can go faster that socketed RAM.) Additionally, I don't think there's enough space for a reasonable number of ports via expansion cards. Even in the larger 8-inch-screen models, I think 4 expansion slots would be very difficult, whereas the current 7-inch models have 5-8 ports. (I think some of the MicroPC models had a handful of fixed ports + one modular expansion slot, so maybe they could change that one to a framework-compatible design?) To their credit, GPD has offered motherboard upgrades in the past when a refreshed design is otherwise compatible. But there are often changes in ports or layout or cooling design that make that impossible.
- attendant3446 1y agoI was seriously considering getting a Framework laptop (but 13") and what stopped me is the limited shipping. Right now I live in the area where I can order one, but I was looking at another country where I'd prefer to live. It won't happen next month or even this year. But if I order a Framework laptop I want to have access to the new and replacement parts and Framework doesn't ship there. I don't want to rely on forwarders. And that's a deal breaker. So I went with another Thinkpad instead. And on the subject of 12" laptop, when it was teased I hoped for a MacBook Air killer. But that didn't happen. I like what Framework is doing, but common manufacturers are still looking like a better value.