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It would work short term, but I would worry that it makes a a price to be paid which will impair joy in learning the subject in the long term. Its much better

It would work short term, but I would worry that it makes a a price to be paid which will impair joy in learning the subject in the long term. Its much better to make kids interested in learning than to reward reaching goals or punish failing to reach them.

serial_dev 1y ago
On the other hand, the kids might do lot of exercises to keep playing, then they get better at something, then they realize that it is much more enjoyable to be good at something than not... Long term, it could still be a win. Obviously not the same, but in the first years of university, I hated math because it suddenly got hard (never before university did I have to learn math or physics just to barely pass). Then, after many nights of reading through books and practicing, grinding, I realized it's not that hard and it made me enjoy solving the "challenges".
- JadeNB 1y ago
  > Then, after many nights of reading through books and practicing, grinding, I realized it's not that hard and it made me enjoy solving the "challenges". The only thing I'd change from this wonderful comment is that it is that hard! It's just that, like any other hard skill, lots of dedicated study and practice makes it easier to do hard things.
  - serial_dev 1y ago
    Sure! What I mean is that before that, I just thought it’s simply too hard for me and the others are smarter or they come from better school. Then, after going through practically 3-5 books for each topic, practically “drilling” exercises, I finally understood why the others “just get it”. It was hard to get myself to sit down, focus, work, practice… but once I worked on a topic for long enough and got better, I realized it’s not magic, I don’t need special talents, and I can just sit down and study most things. Then, the classes and exams didn’t give me anxiety anymore, I started to enjoy them, treat exams as challenges rather then the step before receiving another failed exam notification… I studied Physics but switched to software engineering and this experience helped me add another tool to my toolbelt when something gets difficult. Some perseverance, some time, and we can learn many things. And as you get better, you start to enjoy things.
- BrandoElFollito 1y ago
  I have a PhD in physics and maths always were hard. I ended up having a toolbox to solve my common problems. This is still useful after having left academia, I often look at something and the right "tool" pops up from the toolbox. It helos to understand the world around us and realize how much bullshit we are fed through doctored graphs or tables.
nh23423fefe 1y ago
Is it much better if its not possible? You just handwaved away the work involve by assuming you can create "interest". You shifted the goal post away from using arithmetic as a tax on idle iPad use toward "learning." What about chores? How should I make my children interested in chores outside of a reward or punishment?
- graemep 1y ago
  > Is it much better if its not possible it is usually possible IMO What is the per se benefit of the "tax" if not to encourage learning.? > How should I make my children interested in chores outside of a reward or punishment? Instill a sense of duty and obligation. Set an example. Children do understand quite young that things need to be done, and they like to help parents.
  - nh23423fefe 1y ago
    > What is the per se benefit of the "tax" if not to encourage learning. The tax exists to offset drag of idle ipad time. The tax could be chores, or reading, or arithmetic, or outside play. It doesn't matter. I'm not a perfect person to be emulated. I want to offset their desire for hedonic maximization not demand the live up to some standard I can't accomplish. I'm on my phone all day.
bitwize 1y ago
Math is a grind. Inherently. You gotta drill the basic arithmetic in order to learn it, and no amount of sugarcoating will make kids like it. So incentivizing kids to commit to the grind will beat attempting to make the subject more interesting, every time. This is the lesson unlearned by proponents of "New Math" and "Common Core" in the USA; in fact, maybe one of the reasons why Singapore Math is so successful is because Singaporeans, like many Asians, learn the value of discipline from an early age.
- graemep 1y ago
  > You gotta drill the basic arithmetic in order to learn it Do less arithmetic. We have calculators so arithmetic matters less. > no amount of sugarcoating will make kids like it. Sugarcoating is exactly the wrong approach. Its making the subject itself enjoyable. https://profkeithdevlin.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/lockhartslament.pdf https://profkeithdevlin.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/lockh... > This is the lesson unlearned by proponents of "New Math" and "Common Core" in the USA Not familiar with those, but I the "its fun" approach has worked for me.
  - lazystar 1y ago
    > Do less arithmetic. We have calculators so arithmetic matters less. would you also posit that, since we have AI auto gen tools, we no longer need to teach spelling/grammar to children?
    - graemep 1y ago
      Very different skills. I would not teach spelling by drill and memorisation either - you pick it up if you read.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    > We have calculators so arithmetic matters less. Disagee. Fluency in basic arithmetic is a very useful life skill.
    - 1y ago

serial_dev 1y ago

On the other hand, the kids might do lot of exercises to keep playing, then they get better at something, then they realize that it is much more enjoyable to be good at something than not... Long term, it could still be a win. Obviously not the same, but in the first years of university, I hated math because it suddenly got hard (never before university did I have to learn math or physics just to barely pass). Then, after many nights of reading through books and practicing, grinding, I realized it's not that hard and it made me enjoy solving the "challenges".

JadeNB 1y ago
> Then, after many nights of reading through books and practicing, grinding, I realized it's not that hard and it made me enjoy solving the "challenges". The only thing I'd change from this wonderful comment is that it is that hard! It's just that, like any other hard skill, lots of dedicated study and practice makes it easier to do hard things.
- serial_dev 1y ago
  Sure! What I mean is that before that, I just thought it’s simply too hard for me and the others are smarter or they come from better school. Then, after going through practically 3-5 books for each topic, practically “drilling” exercises, I finally understood why the others “just get it”. It was hard to get myself to sit down, focus, work, practice… but once I worked on a topic for long enough and got better, I realized it’s not magic, I don’t need special talents, and I can just sit down and study most things. Then, the classes and exams didn’t give me anxiety anymore, I started to enjoy them, treat exams as challenges rather then the step before receiving another failed exam notification… I studied Physics but switched to software engineering and this experience helped me add another tool to my toolbelt when something gets difficult. Some perseverance, some time, and we can learn many things. And as you get better, you start to enjoy things.
BrandoElFollito 1y ago
I have a PhD in physics and maths always were hard. I ended up having a toolbox to solve my common problems. This is still useful after having left academia, I often look at something and the right "tool" pops up from the toolbox. It helos to understand the world around us and realize how much bullshit we are fed through doctored graphs or tables.

nh23423fefe 1y ago

Is it much better if its not possible? You just handwaved away the work involve by assuming you can create "interest". You shifted the goal post away from using arithmetic as a tax on idle iPad use toward "learning." What about chores? How should I make my children interested in chores outside of a reward or punishment?

graemep 1y ago
> Is it much better if its not possible it is usually possible IMO What is the per se benefit of the "tax" if not to encourage learning.? > How should I make my children interested in chores outside of a reward or punishment? Instill a sense of duty and obligation. Set an example. Children do understand quite young that things need to be done, and they like to help parents.
- nh23423fefe 1y ago
  > What is the per se benefit of the "tax" if not to encourage learning. The tax exists to offset drag of idle ipad time. The tax could be chores, or reading, or arithmetic, or outside play. It doesn't matter. I'm not a perfect person to be emulated. I want to offset their desire for hedonic maximization not demand the live up to some standard I can't accomplish. I'm on my phone all day.

bitwize 1y ago

Math is a grind. Inherently. You gotta drill the basic arithmetic in order to learn it, and no amount of sugarcoating will make kids like it. So incentivizing kids to commit to the grind will beat attempting to make the subject more interesting, every time. This is the lesson unlearned by proponents of "New Math" and "Common Core" in the USA; in fact, maybe one of the reasons why Singapore Math is so successful is because Singaporeans, like many Asians, learn the value of discipline from an early age.

graemep 1y ago
> You gotta drill the basic arithmetic in order to learn it Do less arithmetic. We have calculators so arithmetic matters less. > no amount of sugarcoating will make kids like it. Sugarcoating is exactly the wrong approach. Its making the subject itself enjoyable. https://profkeithdevlin.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/lockhartslament.pdf https://profkeithdevlin.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/lockh... > This is the lesson unlearned by proponents of "New Math" and "Common Core" in the USA Not familiar with those, but I the "its fun" approach has worked for me.
- lazystar 1y ago
  > Do less arithmetic. We have calculators so arithmetic matters less. would you also posit that, since we have AI auto gen tools, we no longer need to teach spelling/grammar to children?
  - graemep 1y ago
    Very different skills. I would not teach spelling by drill and memorisation either - you pick it up if you read.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  > We have calculators so arithmetic matters less. Disagee. Fluency in basic arithmetic is a very useful life skill.
  - 1y ago