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The EU needs to end the tariffs on Chinese EVs. It's funny they say climate change is a critical emergency (with several countries making measures to effective

The EU needs to end the tariffs on Chinese EVs. It's funny they say climate change is a critical emergency (with several countries making measures to effectively ban AC), but then stick to stuff like that.

pjmlp 1y ago
Stopping wars and AI everything would do much more for the planet than dealing with paper straws. Yet here we are, with no end in sight for them, while I have to feel guilty to prefer something that doesn't destroy itself after a few seconds in contact with liquids, or to take the car, because transport network only favours those that already live in the city.
- GardenLetter27 1y ago
  Why AI? AI is a big productivity booster, better to just generate more nuclear and renewable power, and then use AI to improve things more (same argument for AC). Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all. This degrowth mindset is the whole problem with the EU. They focus on scarcity and cutbacks and regulation and bans, rather than addressing the underlying issues to spur on growth and innovation.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Because of the water cooling and all forms of producing energy that it entails. It is like loving the planet eating soja, while ignoring the forests being destroyed to satisfy demand as planting fields. Or farmable fields now being solar panel fields, because it is more profitable to sell energy, than living the farmer life, earning pennies for a hard work life, while kids die every day of lack of nutrition. To fix the planet, first we need to get rid of profit driven societies.
    - froddd 1y ago
      Soya is a bad analogy here. When forests are being destroyed to grow soya, it isn’t primarily soy to feed humans, but to feed cattle/stock to then feed humans. This is an order of magnitude more destructive. Edit: fully agree with the sentiment, getting rid of the profit-driven mindset would be beneficial to all.
  - rurp 1y ago
    > Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all. Come on now, green energy is less bad than fossil fuels, often by a lot, but that's very different from having no impact. The mining to support solar panels does real measurable harm, as does disposing of old ones. There are similar environmental costs to every green energy source. I think nuclear is one of the least bad options and we should have been making more of it for decades, but it's hardly devoid of externalities. That's not to say we need to consume less energy, just that we should be clear eyed about the tradeoffs. So far there's very little evidence of a huge productivity boost from generative AI, especially relative to the immense energy consumption. Things are changing quickly, maybe that will improve in the near future. But if utility levels off where it is now and energy consumption increases another one or two orders of magnitude, and we're still keeping coal plants alive to support it, I'm going to be pretty skeptical it's worth the cost.
  - palata 1y ago
    > Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all. That says that you don't understand the problems. We (Humanity) have 3 problems: 1. Mass extinction. It is a fact, we are living it, it's measurable and it's very bad. It is not at all due to climate change. 2. Fossil energy. It's harder to see in the US, but in Europe started feeling it in 2007. Fossil fuels are limited, and at the moment we've reached the global production peak in 2018 (2019?). Fossil fuels are of course a cause for global warming, but the end of easy access to fossil fuels is a problem in itself. A "degrowth mindset" is not necessarily an ideology, it's a rational behaviour towards a future with less fossil fuels and therefore less energy. 3. Global warming. Europe can feel that it gets worse every year now. It is just starting, and it's never going back. It will keep getting worse, and nobody alive today will see it get better. The only thing we can do to limit how worse it gets is by using less fossil energy, which brings us back to some kind of degrowth again. Don't mistake everyone who plans for degrowth for people who desire degrowth. The whole problem with the US is the growth mindset. Because the US will military invade other countries long before accepting that degrowth is unavoidable. Any country who believes that the US are an ally is making a mistake, and the US have made it exceedingly clear in the last few months: the US don't have allies, just (temporary) partners and no notion of loyalty.
- ZeroGravitas 1y ago
  The plastic straw bans were about the structural rigidity and non biodegradable nature of the item causing trouble for animals when discarded. Similar to the can ring holders that got banned previously for similar reasons. It's telling that critics of the move needs to invent other reasons for it to fail at.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    It is a fun exercise to seat at the beach and see everyone busy splitting caps from bottles. Sometimes it is better to improve education than draconian measures.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      I remain fascinated how many people (not just you) describe something as minor as a materials or structure requirement of a minor sub-item of one of several different ways in which drinks are prepackaged into individual potions, with terms such as "draconic". It's not like people get the death penalty for littering, which would fit the etymology of the term. Still, language drifts.
      - fragmede 1y ago
        It's so fascinating when people so misunderstand human psychology that something that interferes with the point of a product (ie, drinking the liquid inside of the bottle) is seen as minor, relative to the use of the product. Still, importance is relative.
        ben_w 1y ago
        None of these changes have interfered with my ability to drink directly from the bottle. Perhaps my mouth is unusally shaped?
      - pjmlp 1y ago
        Because this is throwing sand into people eyes, as we say back in Portugal. Easy measures to assert governments are doing something. Actually changing habits of whole populations, or doing real work changes the country infrastructure, access to transport for everyone, and green fuels and whatever, cost too much money, and possible votes, so what really matters isn't done, only the easy stuff, to assert something is being done.
- msgodel 1y ago
  Letting people waste water for cooling is the problem, not AI. If you attack adjacent things you'll get a lot of interesting internet arguments but you probably won't solve the actual issue you care about.
ZeroGravitas 1y ago
The majority of EV imports from China to EU have been Teslas in recent years! The percentage has been falling but it was still about a quarter of imported Chinese made EVs being Tesla in 2023. And a chunk more is European brands like Dacia and BMW. Projected to be majority Chinese brands from this year though.
mrtksn 1y ago
Agree completely, protectionism when your manufacturers still have the resources to compete is just postponing their end and reducing their chances to get a feel on the market and actually build a competitive product. However, on the climate change thing I'm convinced that for EU its's just a happy coincidence that they don't have oil in any considerable amount and are using it to propel for energy independence through renewables.

pjmlp 1y ago

Stopping wars and AI everything would do much more for the planet than dealing with paper straws. Yet here we are, with no end in sight for them, while I have to feel guilty to prefer something that doesn't destroy itself after a few seconds in contact with liquids, or to take the car, because transport network only favours those that already live in the city.

GardenLetter27 1y ago
Why AI? AI is a big productivity booster, better to just generate more nuclear and renewable power, and then use AI to improve things more (same argument for AC). Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all. This degrowth mindset is the whole problem with the EU. They focus on scarcity and cutbacks and regulation and bans, rather than addressing the underlying issues to spur on growth and innovation.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Because of the water cooling and all forms of producing energy that it entails. It is like loving the planet eating soja, while ignoring the forests being destroyed to satisfy demand as planting fields. Or farmable fields now being solar panel fields, because it is more profitable to sell energy, than living the farmer life, earning pennies for a hard work life, while kids die every day of lack of nutrition. To fix the planet, first we need to get rid of profit driven societies.
  - froddd 1y ago
    Soya is a bad analogy here. When forests are being destroyed to grow soya, it isn’t primarily soy to feed humans, but to feed cattle/stock to then feed humans. This is an order of magnitude more destructive. Edit: fully agree with the sentiment, getting rid of the profit-driven mindset would be beneficial to all.
- rurp 1y ago
  > Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all. Come on now, green energy is less bad than fossil fuels, often by a lot, but that's very different from having no impact. The mining to support solar panels does real measurable harm, as does disposing of old ones. There are similar environmental costs to every green energy source. I think nuclear is one of the least bad options and we should have been making more of it for decades, but it's hardly devoid of externalities. That's not to say we need to consume less energy, just that we should be clear eyed about the tradeoffs. So far there's very little evidence of a huge productivity boost from generative AI, especially relative to the immense energy consumption. Things are changing quickly, maybe that will improve in the near future. But if utility levels off where it is now and energy consumption increases another one or two orders of magnitude, and we're still keeping coal plants alive to support it, I'm going to be pretty skeptical it's worth the cost.
- palata 1y ago
  > Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all. That says that you don't understand the problems. We (Humanity) have 3 problems: 1. Mass extinction. It is a fact, we are living it, it's measurable and it's very bad. It is not at all due to climate change. 2. Fossil energy. It's harder to see in the US, but in Europe started feeling it in 2007. Fossil fuels are limited, and at the moment we've reached the global production peak in 2018 (2019?). Fossil fuels are of course a cause for global warming, but the end of easy access to fossil fuels is a problem in itself. A "degrowth mindset" is not necessarily an ideology, it's a rational behaviour towards a future with less fossil fuels and therefore less energy. 3. Global warming. Europe can feel that it gets worse every year now. It is just starting, and it's never going back. It will keep getting worse, and nobody alive today will see it get better. The only thing we can do to limit how worse it gets is by using less fossil energy, which brings us back to some kind of degrowth again. Don't mistake everyone who plans for degrowth for people who desire degrowth. The whole problem with the US is the growth mindset. Because the US will military invade other countries long before accepting that degrowth is unavoidable. Any country who believes that the US are an ally is making a mistake, and the US have made it exceedingly clear in the last few months: the US don't have allies, just (temporary) partners and no notion of loyalty.
ZeroGravitas 1y ago
The plastic straw bans were about the structural rigidity and non biodegradable nature of the item causing trouble for animals when discarded. Similar to the can ring holders that got banned previously for similar reasons. It's telling that critics of the move needs to invent other reasons for it to fail at.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  It is a fun exercise to seat at the beach and see everyone busy splitting caps from bottles. Sometimes it is better to improve education than draconian measures.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    I remain fascinated how many people (not just you) describe something as minor as a materials or structure requirement of a minor sub-item of one of several different ways in which drinks are prepackaged into individual potions, with terms such as "draconic". It's not like people get the death penalty for littering, which would fit the etymology of the term. Still, language drifts.
    - fragmede 1y ago
      It's so fascinating when people so misunderstand human psychology that something that interferes with the point of a product (ie, drinking the liquid inside of the bottle) is seen as minor, relative to the use of the product. Still, importance is relative.
      - ben_w 1y ago
        None of these changes have interfered with my ability to drink directly from the bottle. Perhaps my mouth is unusally shaped?
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Because this is throwing sand into people eyes, as we say back in Portugal. Easy measures to assert governments are doing something. Actually changing habits of whole populations, or doing real work changes the country infrastructure, access to transport for everyone, and green fuels and whatever, cost too much money, and possible votes, so what really matters isn't done, only the easy stuff, to assert something is being done.
msgodel 1y ago
Letting people waste water for cooling is the problem, not AI. If you attack adjacent things you'll get a lot of interesting internet arguments but you probably won't solve the actual issue you care about.

ZeroGravitas 1y ago

The majority of EV imports from China to EU have been Teslas in recent years! The percentage has been falling but it was still about a quarter of imported Chinese made EVs being Tesla in 2023. And a chunk more is European brands like Dacia and BMW. Projected to be majority Chinese brands from this year though.

mrtksn 1y ago

Agree completely, protectionism when your manufacturers still have the resources to compete is just postponing their end and reducing their chances to get a feel on the market and actually build a competitive product. However, on the climate change thing I'm convinced that for EU its's just a happy coincidence that they don't have oil in any considerable amount and are using it to propel for energy independence through renewables.