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Aren't flights at an inflation adjusted all time low and most airlines operating at a razor margin? Seems like the market doing their job. Also price discrimina

Aren't flights at an inflation adjusted all time low and most airlines operating at a razor margin? Seems like the market doing their job. Also price discrimination sounds a lot worse than what it really is? Idk, I don't like that air travel is so easily accessible but, the pricing stuff is the least of our worries.

kelnos 1y ago
> Also price discrimination sounds a lot worse than what it really is? I usually think of price discrimination as the first- or third-degree types (how they define them in the article), that is, charging people different amounts based on how much you think they are willing to or can pay, not on any differentiation of the product. That practice always sounded dirty and dishonest to me. I wasn't aware that something like basic economy could be considered (second-degree, using their terminology) price discrimination; to me that's just offering a different product, with different features and different quality, at a different price. That honestly seems entirely reasonable to me; basic economy is just a different class of service, similar to how business class is different from economy class. I don't think of biz/first class as price discrimination; to me it's just selling a different, higher-quality product for a higher price.
dkjaudyeqooe 1y ago
> Aren't flights at an inflation adjusted all time low Yes, due to improved technology and equipment and because prices have been historically very high. > most airlines operating at a razor margin No, many airlines operate in imperfect markets and reap excessive profits compared to other airlines.
- os2warpman 1y ago
  >No, many airlines operate in imperfect markets and reap excessive profits compared to other airlines. Which ones? Practically all airlines are public companies with easily accessible financial data. All of the one's I've looked at are barely scraping by with single digit profit margins. Delta is around 6% and Emirates is among the if not the best at around 9%. Which airlines are "reaping excessive profits"? I would like to invest in them.
djoldman 1y ago
I would love to see the following be factored in if it isn't already: 1. airline ticket holder minutes wasted due to flight delays and cancelations. 2. amount of jet fuel wasted on empty flights for the purpose of keeping gate privileges. 3. money spent attempting to acquire or merge with other airlines and attendant FTC defense preparation. 4. (any and all other wastes of revenue that do not get invested in the consumer and instead are paid by the consumer). There is more to the story than the price per mile. And that's not even opening the can of worms that is the quality and comfort of the flight for the consumer...
- nadermx 1y ago
  From my understanding, I can't find the article, but it seems airlines by default due to Pilots unions take like 95% of profit, fixed. So when fuel or what not meses with profits. Airlines have to declare bankruptcy to renegotiate with Pilots.
- wagwang 1y ago
  1. is that even in the airline's control? 2. sure but the baseline needs to be against other forms of transit? What's the vacancy rate in a greyhound or amtrak 3. I guess? It's unclear to me if a merger is bad though? What if it streamlines routes? Idk
  - tenacious_tuna 1y ago
    re: 2, the issue is that e.g. airport gates are a(n artificially) limited resource that require airlines to perform behaviors that don't benefit customers and have externalized costs (e.g., wasting fuel) in order to maintain access to those resources. A bus only needs to have something like four people aboard to make it more efficient than equivalent cars by most measures (road space required, fuel, etc); so it's not a 1to1 comparison to other transit rates.
foxyv 1y ago
The fact that we don't have a high speed rail network in the United States is a travesty. Air travel is the least economical form of public transit. We pack human beings into these planes like meat in a can just to make them affordable and then the airlines go bankrupt anyways.
- atom_arranger 1y ago
  I would have thought this as well. Looking at a trip from Fukuoka to Tokyo though. Shinkansen takes 5 hours and costs about $200. An economy flight is around $50 and takes less than 2 hours, although it’s possible there’s a lot more overhead to that time.
  - thehappypm 1y ago
    I don’t know if there’s really that much time overhead. If I’m spending $200 on that rail ticket, I’m gonna arrive at the train station early to account for any issues I have getting there, just like an airport. I find it a little frustrating that people argue that there is zero time overhead in getting to a train station but there’s like three hours with an airplane when in fact, it’s often two hours for airlines and one for trains in reality.
    - jjk166 1y ago
      For flights you have to go through significant amounts of security which is often highly variable. Further, flights tend to be distinct events. For many routes there may only be one per day, and even for busier routes you usually can't just hop on the next one without significant effects on your travel plans, for example rescheduling connecting flights. Trains on the other hand just keep running, there's going to be another one going the exact same route every few hours at most, likely less for busy routes. You can go to a train station without looking at the schedule, for a flight you're scheduling your entire day around it.
      - foxyv 1y ago
        Shinkansen operates at a frequency of one train every 4 minutes on some of the busier lines. The $200 is mostly for very long single trips. It's mostly used by commuters who get monthly passes for cheap and are refunded by their jobs. I can't even imagine how horrible it would be to fly on an airline every single day. It sounds exhausting.

kelnos 1y ago

> Also price discrimination sounds a lot worse than what it really is? I usually think of price discrimination as the first- or third-degree types (how they define them in the article), that is, charging people different amounts based on how much you think they are willing to or can pay, not on any differentiation of the product. That practice always sounded dirty and dishonest to me. I wasn't aware that something like basic economy could be considered (second-degree, using their terminology) price discrimination; to me that's just offering a different product, with different features and different quality, at a different price. That honestly seems entirely reasonable to me; basic economy is just a different class of service, similar to how business class is different from economy class. I don't think of biz/first class as price discrimination; to me it's just selling a different, higher-quality product for a higher price.

dkjaudyeqooe 1y ago

> Aren't flights at an inflation adjusted all time low Yes, due to improved technology and equipment and because prices have been historically very high. > most airlines operating at a razor margin No, many airlines operate in imperfect markets and reap excessive profits compared to other airlines.

os2warpman 1y ago
>No, many airlines operate in imperfect markets and reap excessive profits compared to other airlines. Which ones? Practically all airlines are public companies with easily accessible financial data. All of the one's I've looked at are barely scraping by with single digit profit margins. Delta is around 6% and Emirates is among the if not the best at around 9%. Which airlines are "reaping excessive profits"? I would like to invest in them.

djoldman 1y ago

I would love to see the following be factored in if it isn't already: 1. airline ticket holder minutes wasted due to flight delays and cancelations. 2. amount of jet fuel wasted on empty flights for the purpose of keeping gate privileges. 3. money spent attempting to acquire or merge with other airlines and attendant FTC defense preparation. 4. (any and all other wastes of revenue that do not get invested in the consumer and instead are paid by the consumer). There is more to the story than the price per mile. And that's not even opening the can of worms that is the quality and comfort of the flight for the consumer...

nadermx 1y ago
From my understanding, I can't find the article, but it seems airlines by default due to Pilots unions take like 95% of profit, fixed. So when fuel or what not meses with profits. Airlines have to declare bankruptcy to renegotiate with Pilots.
wagwang 1y ago
1. is that even in the airline's control? 2. sure but the baseline needs to be against other forms of transit? What's the vacancy rate in a greyhound or amtrak 3. I guess? It's unclear to me if a merger is bad though? What if it streamlines routes? Idk
- tenacious_tuna 1y ago
  re: 2, the issue is that e.g. airport gates are a(n artificially) limited resource that require airlines to perform behaviors that don't benefit customers and have externalized costs (e.g., wasting fuel) in order to maintain access to those resources. A bus only needs to have something like four people aboard to make it more efficient than equivalent cars by most measures (road space required, fuel, etc); so it's not a 1to1 comparison to other transit rates.

foxyv 1y ago

The fact that we don't have a high speed rail network in the United States is a travesty. Air travel is the least economical form of public transit. We pack human beings into these planes like meat in a can just to make them affordable and then the airlines go bankrupt anyways.

atom_arranger 1y ago
I would have thought this as well. Looking at a trip from Fukuoka to Tokyo though. Shinkansen takes 5 hours and costs about $200. An economy flight is around $50 and takes less than 2 hours, although it’s possible there’s a lot more overhead to that time.
- thehappypm 1y ago
  I don’t know if there’s really that much time overhead. If I’m spending $200 on that rail ticket, I’m gonna arrive at the train station early to account for any issues I have getting there, just like an airport. I find it a little frustrating that people argue that there is zero time overhead in getting to a train station but there’s like three hours with an airplane when in fact, it’s often two hours for airlines and one for trains in reality.
  - jjk166 1y ago
    For flights you have to go through significant amounts of security which is often highly variable. Further, flights tend to be distinct events. For many routes there may only be one per day, and even for busier routes you usually can't just hop on the next one without significant effects on your travel plans, for example rescheduling connecting flights. Trains on the other hand just keep running, there's going to be another one going the exact same route every few hours at most, likely less for busy routes. You can go to a train station without looking at the schedule, for a flight you're scheduling your entire day around it.
    - foxyv 1y ago
      Shinkansen operates at a frequency of one train every 4 minutes on some of the busier lines. The $200 is mostly for very long single trips. It's mostly used by commuters who get monthly passes for cheap and are refunded by their jobs. I can't even imagine how horrible it would be to fly on an airline every single day. It sounds exhausting.