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> "placed in a cell" I think the title is deficient and should be based on this higher-weighted fact, over the weaker phrasing "refused entry". "Tourist jaile

> "placed in a cell" I think the title is deficient and should be based on this higher-weighted fact, over the weaker phrasing "refused entry". "Tourist jailed without trial for possessing political cartoon"

sarchertech 1y ago
He was placed in a cell before they found the Vance image. He also said the border guard didn’t like that image or an image of him with a wooden pipe. I don’t doubt that it’s possible he was denied because of the Vance image and that in itself says something terrible about the current state of affairs. But I think it’s more likely that he was stopped based on some other red flag like not having a return ticket and denied because of that.
- SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - sarchertech 1y ago
    When I say it’s possible, I don’t think that it’s the official CBP policy, but I have had enough interactions with power tripping cops to believe that it’s possible that the kid was disrespectful to the wrong guy. Customs agents have wide latitude in determining who can enter, and I could see a situation where an already angry agent saw the Vance thing, got even angrier and said you’re outta here.
    - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
      Sure, maybe. But there’s clearly an entire other side of the story along with the Norwegian government warning other travelers, they must have their documents on them.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - account42 1y ago
      The situation could certainly have been escalated by a single officer in a bad mood but there must have been some flag that caused him to be pulled aside in the first place. That doesn't mean there was any real wrong doing on the part of the guy but with many of other similar claims against the US border agents mistreating EU citizens you do see some reason why they might have been spooked if you dig a little deeper. E.g. anything that could give CBP the idea that you intend to seek work in the US is just asking for trouble. Edit: It was drug use according to CPB: https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444 https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444
      - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
        Who possibly could have seen that edit coming? Not the hundreds of “highly intelligent and immune to manipulation” HackerNews readers apparently.
  - solid_fuel 1y ago
    Don't make excuses for this abuse. The administration now in power in the US has been very clear - they oppose free speech and do not respect the constitution or Bill of Rights.
    - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
      How are you so certain it’s abuse? How are you even certain the story happened? Why would you be any degree of certain that it happened the way that this angry Norwegian is saying it happened? How would you have any idea you’re being manipulated or not? Would you care if it entirely aligned with your presumptions and preferences?
    - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
      Wow, what an amazing surprise! https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444 https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444
- q1w2 1y ago
  Important to note that the only source of information we have right now is the deported person's account of events. He does say he was detained PRIOR to the picture being found. Being detained if far more relevant than being asked about a photo. It's also important to note that Border Control will not tell you WHY you're being denied entry, so the person ascribing it to the meme is speculating based on being asked about it.
gruez 1y ago
>"Tourist jailed without trial for possessing political cartoon" Jail almost by definition means pretrial detention, so "jailed without trial" is a tautology.
- anigbrowl 1y ago
  Not in the United States. Jails are operated by cities or counties and people can be incarcerated for up to a year in jail. Prisons are operated by the state and house people convicted of felonies (sentence >1 year).
- eesmith 1y ago
  Jail can be used for post-conviction confinement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#United_States > A jail holds people for shorter periods of time (for example, less than a year) or for pre-trial detention and is usually operated by a local government, typically the county sheriff. > A prison or penitentiary holds people for longer periods of time, such as many years, and is operated by a state or federal government. After a conviction, a sentenced person is sent to prison. Here's an example of it used that way in Virginia's laws, at https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter1/section18.2-11/ https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter1/secti... > The authorized punishments for conviction of a misdemeanor are: > (a) For Class 1 misdemeanors, confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.
- guappa 1y ago
  Most people who are not from USA do not make any distinction between jail and prison. Nitpicking about the precise legal terminology is a bit pointless in this context.
  - gruez 1y ago
    It's not really nitpicking because any sort of pretrial detention is technically "jailed without trial", and pretrial detention isn't some sort of tool only used by fascist regimes. So far as I can tell, he was pulled aside for further questioning and ultimately refused entry, but the authorities didn't go out of their way to detain him for longer than necessary. No, I'm not excusing the government's behavior. Refusing someone entry for possessing a political cartoon is still bad, but "jailed without trial" is just inflammatory wording. If some protester got arrested for protesting, the reasonable thing to do is to call it just that, not "protester jailed without trial for protesting".
ymhr 1y ago
Even worse, you can omit “political” meme - he may be a political figure but as far as I can tell it has no relation to any policies…it’s just a silly picture.
- perihelions 1y ago
  Isn't the politics the entire point though? US federal law enforcement isn't jailing people over funny pictures; they're jailing people over funny pictures *of powerful government officials*. It's an instantly-recognizable trait of a certain kind of country: like "you can't refer to Xi Jinping as "Pooh", you go to jail for that", or "you can't talk about the King of Thailand's body weight, you go to jail for that"—it's a archetype of *that* kind of place. Everyone knows what it means. "You can't make silly pictures of Vice President Vance—you go to jail for that".
  - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
    I don't think the King of Thailand was really a government official - more of a figurehead.
  - account42 1y ago
    The guy wasn't jailed, he was detained until he could be put on a return flight the same day. That he was refused entry because of the picture is his speculation and likely not the full truth because they only found the picture after already pulling him aside. There is certainly questionable behavior by the CPB here if the description is correct but lets not make conclusions that aren't backed by facts. Edit: CPB refutes that he was denied entry because of the meme: https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444 https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444
    - mandmandam 1y ago
      The claim: "for his admitted drug use" The context: He smoked weed in California, where it's legal, years ago. This guy isn't a drug trafficker. He's not doing meth or heroin, never did. He smoked weed, in a legal state (as millions of Americans do on a daily basis). Then he made the critical mistake of handing over his phone to be searched, rather than flying home (!), upon which advanced creepy software (probably developed and funded by some of this very crowd) flagged this 'federal crime' of smoking weed while in Cali. So yes, the meme is a red herring, but it's distracting from a thing that's still incredibly fucked up.
dandanua 1y ago
The higher-weighted fact is that the USA has a brutal double assassination of opposition politicians (a senator and a house representative along with their spouses), and no one is talking about that, zero mentions on hacker news. A guy detained for a Vance meme? Yeah, keep your attention on that. You live in a fascism already.
- SauciestGNU 1y ago
  I think there's been plenty of discussion of the above, and it often dovetails with immigration enforcement and the pretty reasonable assumption that the masked kidnap squads are law enforcement impersonators in much the same way the assassin was, and the two types of situation are different manifestations of the same threat model (volent actors working at the behest of the autocrat but without necessarily being agents of the state).
- airforce1 1y ago
  A state (not federal) house representative and her husband were murdered. A state (not federal) senator and his wife were attempted murdered, but both survived and are expected to recover. Your comment frames it as if 2 members of federal congress were assassinated which would have been a much bigger deal. State politicians being killed is still shocking and tragic, but try to be precise in your language as to not mislead.
  - gota 1y ago
    This is surprising to me. Are you implying/saying it's no big deal that 2 elected officials were shot (one killed) because they are "only" state-level politicians? This is not a good sign for democracy in the US. I think a healthy response would be protests, investigations, state and federal "comissions" looking into domestic political terrorism, etc. A whole lot of consequences. Instead there is nothing. In contrast, in Brazil (not even a best example of a healthiest democracy) the assassination of a city councilwoman (city! not even state!) has been a dominant story in politics for many years and has never completely fallen out of public attention. It's been close to a decade! I'm not one to quickly say "fascism" or to spell out doom but even to me this is a crystal clear sign of a system starting to fail... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marielle_Franco https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marielle_Franco

sarchertech 1y ago

He was placed in a cell before they found the Vance image. He also said the border guard didn’t like that image or an image of him with a wooden pipe. I don’t doubt that it’s possible he was denied because of the Vance image and that in itself says something terrible about the current state of affairs. But I think it’s more likely that he was stopped based on some other red flag like not having a return ticket and denied because of that.

SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
[flagged]
- sarchertech 1y ago
  When I say it’s possible, I don’t think that it’s the official CBP policy, but I have had enough interactions with power tripping cops to believe that it’s possible that the kid was disrespectful to the wrong guy. Customs agents have wide latitude in determining who can enter, and I could see a situation where an already angry agent saw the Vance thing, got even angrier and said you’re outta here.
  - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
    Sure, maybe. But there’s clearly an entire other side of the story along with the Norwegian government warning other travelers, they must have their documents on them.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - account42 1y ago
    The situation could certainly have been escalated by a single officer in a bad mood but there must have been some flag that caused him to be pulled aside in the first place. That doesn't mean there was any real wrong doing on the part of the guy but with many of other similar claims against the US border agents mistreating EU citizens you do see some reason why they might have been spooked if you dig a little deeper. E.g. anything that could give CBP the idea that you intend to seek work in the US is just asking for trouble. Edit: It was drug use according to CPB: https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444 https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444
    - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
      Who possibly could have seen that edit coming? Not the hundreds of “highly intelligent and immune to manipulation” HackerNews readers apparently.
- solid_fuel 1y ago
  Don't make excuses for this abuse. The administration now in power in the US has been very clear - they oppose free speech and do not respect the constitution or Bill of Rights.
  - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
    How are you so certain it’s abuse? How are you even certain the story happened? Why would you be any degree of certain that it happened the way that this angry Norwegian is saying it happened? How would you have any idea you’re being manipulated or not? Would you care if it entirely aligned with your presumptions and preferences?
  - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
    Wow, what an amazing surprise! https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444 https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444
q1w2 1y ago
Important to note that the only source of information we have right now is the deported person's account of events. He does say he was detained PRIOR to the picture being found. Being detained if far more relevant than being asked about a photo. It's also important to note that Border Control will not tell you WHY you're being denied entry, so the person ascribing it to the meme is speculating based on being asked about it.

gruez 1y ago

>"Tourist jailed without trial for possessing political cartoon" Jail almost by definition means pretrial detention, so "jailed without trial" is a tautology.

anigbrowl 1y ago
Not in the United States. Jails are operated by cities or counties and people can be incarcerated for up to a year in jail. Prisons are operated by the state and house people convicted of felonies (sentence >1 year).
eesmith 1y ago
Jail can be used for post-conviction confinement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#United_States > A jail holds people for shorter periods of time (for example, less than a year) or for pre-trial detention and is usually operated by a local government, typically the county sheriff. > A prison or penitentiary holds people for longer periods of time, such as many years, and is operated by a state or federal government. After a conviction, a sentenced person is sent to prison. Here's an example of it used that way in Virginia's laws, at https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter1/section18.2-11/ https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter1/secti... > The authorized punishments for conviction of a misdemeanor are: > (a) For Class 1 misdemeanors, confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.
guappa 1y ago
Most people who are not from USA do not make any distinction between jail and prison. Nitpicking about the precise legal terminology is a bit pointless in this context.
- gruez 1y ago
  It's not really nitpicking because any sort of pretrial detention is technically "jailed without trial", and pretrial detention isn't some sort of tool only used by fascist regimes. So far as I can tell, he was pulled aside for further questioning and ultimately refused entry, but the authorities didn't go out of their way to detain him for longer than necessary. No, I'm not excusing the government's behavior. Refusing someone entry for possessing a political cartoon is still bad, but "jailed without trial" is just inflammatory wording. If some protester got arrested for protesting, the reasonable thing to do is to call it just that, not "protester jailed without trial for protesting".

ymhr 1y ago

Even worse, you can omit “political” meme - he may be a political figure but as far as I can tell it has no relation to any policies…it’s just a silly picture.

perihelions 1y ago
Isn't the politics the entire point though? US federal law enforcement isn't jailing people over funny pictures; they're jailing people over funny pictures *of powerful government officials*. It's an instantly-recognizable trait of a certain kind of country: like "you can't refer to Xi Jinping as "Pooh", you go to jail for that", or "you can't talk about the King of Thailand's body weight, you go to jail for that"—it's a archetype of *that* kind of place. Everyone knows what it means. "You can't make silly pictures of Vice President Vance—you go to jail for that".
- ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
  I don't think the King of Thailand was really a government official - more of a figurehead.
- account42 1y ago
  The guy wasn't jailed, he was detained until he could be put on a return flight the same day. That he was refused entry because of the picture is his speculation and likely not the full truth because they only found the picture after already pulling him aside. There is certainly questionable behavior by the CPB here if the description is correct but lets not make conclusions that aren't backed by facts. Edit: CPB refutes that he was denied entry because of the meme: https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444 https://x.com/CBP/status/1937651325354795444
  - mandmandam 1y ago
    The claim: "for his admitted drug use" The context: He smoked weed in California, where it's legal, years ago. This guy isn't a drug trafficker. He's not doing meth or heroin, never did. He smoked weed, in a legal state (as millions of Americans do on a daily basis). Then he made the critical mistake of handing over his phone to be searched, rather than flying home (!), upon which advanced creepy software (probably developed and funded by some of this very crowd) flagged this 'federal crime' of smoking weed while in Cali. So yes, the meme is a red herring, but it's distracting from a thing that's still incredibly fucked up.

dandanua 1y ago

The higher-weighted fact is that the USA has a brutal double assassination of opposition politicians (a senator and a house representative along with their spouses), and no one is talking about that, zero mentions on hacker news. A guy detained for a Vance meme? Yeah, keep your attention on that. You live in a fascism already.

SauciestGNU 1y ago
I think there's been plenty of discussion of the above, and it often dovetails with immigration enforcement and the pretty reasonable assumption that the masked kidnap squads are law enforcement impersonators in much the same way the assassin was, and the two types of situation are different manifestations of the same threat model (volent actors working at the behest of the autocrat but without necessarily being agents of the state).
airforce1 1y ago
A state (not federal) house representative and her husband were murdered. A state (not federal) senator and his wife were attempted murdered, but both survived and are expected to recover. Your comment frames it as if 2 members of federal congress were assassinated which would have been a much bigger deal. State politicians being killed is still shocking and tragic, but try to be precise in your language as to not mislead.
- gota 1y ago
  This is surprising to me. Are you implying/saying it's no big deal that 2 elected officials were shot (one killed) because they are "only" state-level politicians? This is not a good sign for democracy in the US. I think a healthy response would be protests, investigations, state and federal "comissions" looking into domestic political terrorism, etc. A whole lot of consequences. Instead there is nothing. In contrast, in Brazil (not even a best example of a healthiest democracy) the assassination of a city councilwoman (city! not even state!) has been a dominant story in politics for many years and has never completely fallen out of public attention. It's been close to a decade! I'm not one to quickly say "fascism" or to spell out doom but even to me this is a crystal clear sign of a system starting to fail... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marielle_Franco https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marielle_Franco